Ireland v Argentina

[Cracker]

This is exceptionally difficult to say but I am beginning to agree with a lot of what George Hook says much as I dislike him and what he has said in the past.O'Gara seems to do what he likes and still get picked.The Leinster folk dislike him as much as the Ulster folk. How long can Kidney stick with him and lose games as a result. His trouble is that he is so arogant and thinks he is so good that he is untouchable. Sexton must be given a go as must Paddy at centre but I doubt that Kidney will drop one of his Munster friends or indeed any of them.

[semi mental]

poor ireland performance against a willing but limited argentina side. that said, i'll settle for the boring win we got than a try fest that we lost. the result was the important thing and we achieved that. few positives - wallace still top notch, ferris really finding his feet at the highest level and must be in contention for a starting berth come 6 nations time, and kearney is fine under the high ball and needs to be played at 15.
negatives - rog is a ballbag, we all knew it, now rugby fans the world over can see what a spoilt child he is. doesnt have a big enough boot, crap going forward and weak in defence. the sooner sexton keatley etc can step up the better. also i'm perplexed as to how we can possess a backline with such an array of talents yet look so inept. there were no set moves, no dummy runners and no invention at all. also, rog seems to be allergic to the ball and wants to kick it away at every given opportunity. i'm no expert, but i'm pretty sure you need the ball to score. tomas o'leary - anyone explain this to me? reddan has been good since stepping in, and o'leary has done nothing imo to warrant a starting place. he was poor yesterday. there's more, but this has been depressing enough.

[dropkick]

For me the main problem is not with the players it's with the coaching. They looked clueless yesterday. It seems that only when the ball is in the opposition 22 will the forwards start picking and going. Therefore all Argentina have to do it spread out across the pitch and that combined with Irelands poor back play maybe it very comfortable to defend.

Regarding the backline moves (or lack of moves) the coaches will have to take some responsibility here.

In the forwards DOC and Heaslip will have to start doing more. They make plenty of tackles but they're not carrying any ball.

The positives are that we got the 8th place ranking, won the match and now DK and his coaching team will be able to take a few risks and experiment a bit.

[dropkick]

Also it should be noted that Argentina are spoilers. Thats their game and they want teams to come out and take chances against them. The Irish management must have decided not to take and chances and play it cautiously and just get a win. So in that regard it was a success.

[mikerob]

The game was always going to be a dog fight - I've never seen an Ireland v Argentina game that wasn't.

fyi I believe it was Ireland's biggest ever winning margin against the Pumas however the loss of Contepomi and Hernandez must have been significant.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

For me MotM was between David Wallace and Paul O'Connell - the latter not least because he did the job BOD should have done - he was the one who showed leadership what the captain should be doing. BOD was nearly as bad as ROG for mouthing and stirring

As for Ronan O'Tantrum - don't make me laff - the only thing he deserves from that game is to be cited for the kick to the stomach/groin.....


..... and the problem from that would be that even IF cited, he'll have served any suspension before the 6N comes around and DK won't even have his hand forced into replacing him.

[AndyB]

I suppose what we have to say is job done 8th place secured. Now we have to get better. After watching the other games this weekend only Wales play with the pace and intensity needed for the modern game. We like England are too static and ponderous.

O'Callaghan needs to up his game, he played well when he was ousting Big Mal from the team but now he seems to have falled into a comfort zone. Heaslip hasnt impressed me this season, he looks to me like he's carrying a bit of excess weight.

We were really poor at 10, 12 and 13 yesterday. I am really sad to say but at international level BOD is very rapidly reaching the end, there were a couple of times yesterday when a few years he would have stepped on the gas but yesterday he kicked. His defence is still great but so was Kevin Maggs! Fitzgerald hasn't done anything yet either but Id like to see him get a run of games in the centre for leinster. Paddy deserves a runout at 12 as he is the most creative inside centre in Ireland at the mo.

Kearney is our best fullback so play him there - its that simple.

Oh and as for the motm - ROG catch yerself on!

[Ardglass2]

Kearney is our best fullback so play him there - its that simple.

Trouble is he is also our best winger.

Murphy played well Bowe didn't and Trimble and Horgam do not convince.

On the autumn performances Murphy, Earls and Keaney will be the back three

[Neil F]

Ardglass; you're right, Bowe was poor but Kearney hardly set the world alight either, during this series. Bowe looked all at sea under the high ball on Saturday, which is unusual but Kearney seemed to do nothing when he got the ball, which Bowe did. I'd shift Kearney back to fullback with Fitzgerald on the wing. I think this series has proven that Fitzgerald is not an international centre.

He wasn't helped by the total lack of space in midfield but, more often than not, it was Fitzgerald that the ball stopped with. Nearly every time he got on the ball, he tried to cut back inside and was tackled. His defence wasn't great either - he was run through a couple of times by big men and still seemed to be letting his opposite number get past him before taking him down. Very disappointed by Fitzgerald in this series; his distribution and vision seem somewhat poor, his defence is questionable and he didn't look particularly potent anywhere in attack. At this stage, he should definately be in the back three.

The total impotence of the outside backs is still questionable. O'Gara didn't get the backs going and the ball didn't get to the wingers enough but neither centre really looked like making that clean line break or that killer pass out wide. There were a few touches of genius from O'Driscoll but he doesn't look like he has the pace to make it through the line; it's telling that most of his great work now is coming from the boot, not with ball in hand. This 6 Nations, I feel, is a time to move beyond playing an unfit and over-worked O'Driscoll - the man is clearly nearing the end of his international career and Fitzgerald, as yet, hasn't shown that he is the natural successor. Trimble, Earls and even Cave really should be looked at, although with Wallace at 12.

Thought that O'Callaghan and Heaslip were totally anonymous in this game. It opens up some serious questions about selection for the Six Nations in the forwards; I don't think the view that there is no one else, apart from O'Callaghan, can be allowed to continue. Casey's pace is questionable, for example, as is O'Kelly's age but if O'Callaghan is as ineffective as he appeared on Saturday, then it makes little sense not to make a change in this area. Especially with the return of Dennis Leamy, Heaslip's position is going to be under some serious threat.

For the 6 Nations, I'd like to see a little more experimentation from Kidney in the 6 Nations. The World Cup position is now secure, so finding real options in positions where there hasn't been much competition in recent times should rank nearly as highly in Kidney's thoughts as getting a successful 6 Nations campaign under his belt. As such, I'd be tempted to go for something like:

15. R. Kearney
14. T. Bowe
13. A. Trimble / K. Earls
12. P. Wallace
11. L. Fitzgerald
10. R. O'Gara
9. T. O'Leary

1. T. Court
2. R. Best
3. J. Hayes
4. B. Casey
5. P. O'Connell
6. S. Ferris
7. D. Wallace
8. D. Leamy

16. J. Flannery
17. T. Buckley
18. D. O'Callaghan
19. J. Heaslip / S. Jennings
20. E. Reddan
21. K. Earls / A. Trimble
22. G. Murphy

[againstthehead]

You've been on that high strength beer again Neil... BOD is light years ahead of Trimble and PW - the guys a leg end. Even if he is an Brennan. I agree Fitzy had a poor autumn series and that PW or trimble may be worth a look at 12. Can't see an all Ulster centre pairing for a few years yet...

[AndyB]

Where did the story about Bowe having a bad game come from? RTE maybe? He made a mess of ONE high ball early on and ok after that and he made a number of good runs from broken play (none from set play mind you thanks to ROG and BOD). Some guy worte nonsense in the Sunday Times saying he should have passed outside to BOD instead of inside to Wally, how he could have done when BOD was flagging about 6 metres back I don't know. By the way when you look at that incident from behind you can see that Kearney is costing along instead of being up in support.

[bigchiefally]

Where did the story about Bowe having a bad game come from? RTE maybe? He made a mess of ONE high ball early on and ok after that and he made a number of good runs from broken play (none from set play mind you thanks to ROG and BOD). Some guy worte nonsense in the Sunday Times saying he should have passed outside to BOD instead of inside to Wally, how he could have done when BOD was flagging about 6 metres back I don't know. By the way when you look at that incident from behind you can see that Kearney is costing along instead of being up in support.

I thought Bowe had a mixed game. He made a mess of a more than just one kick, should have scored more than one try but also provided just about the only breaks by any Irish back.

Very disappointed that Wallace never got a run at 12.

[AndyB]

Where did the story about Bowe having a bad game come from? RTE maybe? He made a mess of ONE high ball early on and ok after that and he made a number of good runs from broken play (none from set play mind you thanks to ROG and BOD). Some guy worte nonsense in the Sunday Times saying he should have passed outside to BOD instead of inside to Wally, how he could have done when BOD was flagging about 6 metres back I don't know. By the way when you look at that incident from behind you can see that Kearney is costing along instead of being up in support.

I thought Bowe had a mixed game. He made a mess of a more than just one kick, should have scored more than one try but also provided just about the only breaks by any Irish back.

Very disappointed that Wallace never got a run at 12.

When should he have scored these other tries?

And even if he had a mixed game it was better than the cack ones that O'Gara, O'Driscoll and Fitzgerald had. Murphy did nothing either.

[Neil F]

You've been on that high strength beer again Neil... BOD is light years ahead of Trimble and PW - the guys a leg end. Even if he is an ar$e. I agree Fitzy had a poor autumn series and that PW or trimble may be worth a look at 12. Can't see an all Ulster centre pairing for a few years yet...

I think this all depends, ATH:

Yes, O'Driscoll, in terms of reading the game, knowing the game and executing certain parts of the game is lightyears ahead of any other centre in Ireland and, possibly, any other centre in the game. There are no questions that can be raised about his skill and nous and that has been shown, even in this series, with the odd flash of genius. On those grounds, yes, O'Driscoll is the best option.

BUT; he's 29 and his fitness is failing. He's injury prone. He's lost his pace and most of his attacking threat now comes from clever kicks. The guy doesn't look like he's ever going to make another clean linebreak at international level unless his general fitness improves and he feels that he can put his foot on the gas without his hamstring popping. I think what was most noticeable in this series was when a ball went loose near O'Driscoll. Just how slow he was to react to those loose balls was insane - it was like watching an oil tanker turning through 180 degrees. Given the questions about pace and probable lack of fitness, it seems unlikely that he's going to be around at the next world cup.

I'm not saying that Trimble, or Cave, or Earls are better players than O'Driscoll right now, I'm saying that Kidney has to be realistic about what O'Driscoll offers, and can offer in the coming seasons, and select a team that mediates that. We NEED more options in a lot of positions and the centre is one of those. Ireland is not short of centres but there is a shortage in experienced international centres and, in order to seriously challenge in coming seasons, Kidney needs to redress that. O'Driscoll won't always be around and he won't always be available for selection.

I also extend this line of thought to the props, second-row and out-half positions.

[Snipe Watson]

I'd play:
15. Kearney
14. Earls
13. Trimble
12. O'Driscoll
11. Fitzgerald
10. O'Gara
9. O'Leary

1. Court
2. Best
3. Hayes
4. Casey
5. O'Connell (C)
6. Ferris
7. Jennings
8. Wallace

Bowe lacks sheer pace needed for an international wing
BOD has lost his speed and needs a move to 12.
DOC has had a poor series
We need a proper 7 in Jennings
Horan is a shadow of the player he was