Irish Rugby Myth-buster

[backawaygoonahead]

so rather than sleg off, either ignore it, or join in. Simple. Too many people like to have a go at others for reasons detrimental to open debate and discussion.

it's a disgrace if you ask me, and damages the site as a whole
#cutoutthecrapgentlemen

2,3,4 - there may be trouble ahead, but while theres music and love and romance, lets face the music and dance.

[The Fonz]

Settle down lads before someone keep the bench warm for the weekend

[Neil F]

I prefer myths of the sort: "Geordan Murphy was always played out of position" or, "Geordan Murphy never got a good run in the Ireland team"...

Below is a list of all of Murphy’s Six Nations appearances for Ireland, as well as those games in which he didn’t make the squad.

For interpretation purposes, given that he appeared in only three of ten games in 2001 and 2002, I will assume he became a first-team regular in 2003. I will ignore 2004 in this discussion as Murphy was unavailable due to injury. He has also been unavailable due to injury at other times but I will ignore that as insignificant.

Since 2003, Muprhy has been selected in 28 of a possible 35 6 Nations matchday squads (80%). Of these 28 selections, the break down is as follows: 19 starts at fullback, 2 starts at wing and 7 from the bench. That means of 28 competitive 6 Nations Games that Murphy has been involved in, he has started 21 (75%). 19 or these 21 starts (90%) have been in his preferred position of fullback, with only 2 (10%) coming on the wing.

Does any of this really sound like the stats of a player that has been continually ignored by the Irish management, or of a player who has been, continually, played out of position by the Irish management? Perhaps many need to accept the truth that Murphy has been given plenty of chances, and has been afforded plenty of trust, in his preferred position. His non-selection is due, simply, to performance.

Hopefully, this will lay to rest the many myths that have surrounded Geordan Murphy.

The full stats are below:

2001:

Italy 22 – 41 Ireland – Not in squad
Ireland 22 – 15 France – Not in squad
Scotland 32 – 10 Ireland - Wing
Wales 6 – 36 Ireland – Not in squad
Ireland 20 – 14 England – Not in squad

2002:

Ireland 54 - 10 Wales - Wing
England 45 - 11 Ireland - Wing
Ireland 43 - 22 Scotland - Not in squad
Ireland 32 - 17 Italy - Not in squad
France 44 - 5 Ireland - Not in squad

2003:

Scotland 6 - Ireland 36 - Bench
Italy 13 - 37 Ireland - Fullback
Ireland 15 - 12 France - Fullback
Wales 24 - 25 Ireland - Fullback
Ireland 6 - 42 England - Fullback

2004:

France 35 - 17 Ireland - Not in squad
Ireland 36 - 15 Wales - Not in squad
England 13 - 19 Ireland - Not in squad
Ireland 19 - 3 Italy - Not in squad
Ireland 37 - 6 Scotland - Not in squad

2005:

Italy 17 - 28 Ireland - Fullback
Scotland 13 - 40 Ireland - Fullback
Ireland 19 - 13 England - Fullback
Ireland 19 - 26 France - Fullback
Wales 32 - 20 Ireland - Fullback

2006:

Ireland 26 - 16 Italy - Fullback
France 43 - 31 Ireland - Fullback
Ireland 31 - 5 Wales - Fullback
Ireland 15 - 9 Scotland - Fullback
England 24 - 28 Ireland - Fullback

2007:

Wales 9 - 19 Ireland - Bench
Ireland 17 - 20 France - Wing
Ireland 43 - 13 England - Not in squad
Scotland 18 - 19 Ireland - Not in squad
Italy 24 - 51 Ireland - Not in squad

2008:

Ireland 16 - 11 Italy - Not in squad
France 26 - 21 Ireland - Wing
Ireland 34 - 13 Scotland - Fullback
Ireland 12 - 16 Wales - Not in squad
England 33 - 10 Ireland – Fullback

2009:

Ireland 30 – 21 France – Bench
Italy 9 – 38 Ireland – Bench
Ireland 14 – 13 England – Bench
Scotland 15 – 22 Ireland – Bench
Wales 15 – 17 Ireland – Bench

2010:

Ireland 29 – 11 Italy – Not in squad
France 33 – 10 Ireland – Not in squad
England 16 – 20 Ireland – Fullback
Ireland 27 – 12 Wales – Fullback
Ireland 20 – 23 Scotland - Fullback

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

am i really banned? or just a warning...
if so will this post work?

cant wait to hit submit and see....

[backawaygoonahead]

Irish Rugby Myth No. 2: Ireland has had a ‘golden generation’ in the noughties
There is a temptation to look at how bad Ireland were in the ‘90s, and how relatively good in the ‘00s, and to attribute the difference to a freak, one-off generation of good players. The more I think about it, the more a mis-reading of what actually happened this seems to be.

A distortion of what I said DL but I'm pretty sure you know that In fact I pinpointed the 2nd 6Ns game of 2000 when Gatland made 8 changes after the Twickenham disgrace 50-18 and capped many who went on to be the backbone of the "Golden Generation".

Where you are being a little disingenuous is that I clearly pointed out that this is what the current run of 12 pretty decent years was founded upon, not a one off, however had the stars of that year and the next one or two not come along together then things may have been very different.

If you think back to CMH Gibson he was essentially the BOD of his day revered worldwide but he often played in dull teams proving that more than one or two greats (he did play a lot with WJMcB) are required to make a team.

Furthermore it isn't a case of comparing the 90s with subsequent years -its comparing almost the entire history of Irish rugby which has never had as prolonged a period of relative success.

By the way I'm exceedingly grateful to you for filling a dull hour or so before the U20s get started, I had assumed I would have to wait until Monday for your next "Anti-Irish Coach" thread. Perhaps a double dose this week ? Splendid, nae - irresistible.

[darkside lightside]

Bagoa - this topic was not a response to your good self.. It's simply that over time I've got totally focked off at the way fans and journalists recite these little feel-good myths to themselves when Ireland aren't playing well.

[backawaygoonahead]

Irish Rugby Myth No. 1: Ireland has a particularly small player pool.

Looking at just senior players, Ireland have circa 25k registered, in the same ballpark as NZ and Wales, and somewhat less than Australia. England, France and SA all have over 100k senior players registered. Of course, the first thing that this shows is that registered player numbers is not necessarily a good indicator of international success – think of England 2004-2010, and the fact that NZ have been consistently beating all comers for the last few years.

You really are in indefatigable rascal DL. Your numbers theory is, as ever, taking a convenient fact and building a tale around it. Sadly it is patently a smokescreen.

I'm pretty sure that if you compared numbers of Professional players you would find that tells a truer tale with the obvious conclusion that we do indeed have a minuscule pool of players compared to all the big hitters. Even Argentina has a massive pool of pros compared to us.

Naughty naughty DL, without any doubt in terms of numbers of pros in front-line nations only Scotland & Italy are likely to have fewer than us and given their last 12 seasons I think you can safely conclude that the numbers is indeed a factor. Perhaps Wales would have similar numbers to us

NZ, have 14 pro teams in the NPC give or take, I am not certain of the numbers. They have 26 provincial unions. That means they have potentially 14 pro players in any given position compared to Scotland with their 2 pro teams, do you seriously believe that isn't the correct criteria that strength of playing numbers should be judged by ?

As always I enjoy the effort you put into your rugby rants and long may yur lumb reek. Looking forward to you praising DK after Ireland stuff Wales tomorrow

Just saw your last post - I do agree that we aren't very exciting or playing anywhere near top form - I just disagree with the conclusions you are reaching and in particular the "small pool of players" "myth".

Perhaps we are weak in the coaching department at amateur level but at the pro level I think as professionalism grows we continue to punch above our weight. Sorry to say but in addition to the Golden Generation and the continued supply of promising players, the coaches need to take some credit.

Sorry I know you won't like that but for me its obvious. We punch above our weight at pro level and if some of the players coming through, Spence for example, turn out to be top class then there is no reason we can't continue to do so.

That said we will never win an RWC (at least not in my lifetime) because of the small pool issue -too many matches in a short period. Squad depth as much as great 1st XV will always win RWCs. What I would class as achievable would be more frequent Grand Slams - once a decade perhaps ? - beating the bloody All Blacks before I die -wins in the SH.

There are so many factors at play, even in the 6Ns we often play Italy either 1st or last. I haven't checked the results but I'm pretty certain that when we play them early we sometimes struggle - when we get them late we tend to hammer them. Why ? The rate of attrition on their even smaller talent pool. It is a big factor.

[fermain]

seee, now I feel stoopid

[backawaygoonahead]

seee, now I feel stoopid

What did BrianC say ? Something about your neck????

[brianc]

Gooner, fairly disappointingly I find myself totally agreeing with your thoughts, didnt have time to put as much detail into my response!!! We have used the same phrase about "punching above our weight", & I await DL's response .

Also agree we will not win a world cup in our lifetimes, (although I am clearly only a young thing compared to yourself!!). There is no amount of moaning about current coaching, structures etc that can really change that, although obviously those in charge should not stop trying.

[backawaygoonahead]

Gooner, fairly disappointingly I find myself totally agreeing with your thoughts, didnt have time to put as much detail into my response!!! We have used the same phrase about "punching above our weight", & I await DL's response .

Also agree we will not win a world cup in our lifetimes, (although I am clearly only a young thing compared to yourself!!). There is no amount of moaning about current coaching, structures etc that can really change that, although obviously those in charge should not stop trying.

BrianC: I have been through all this before with others who have "seen the light" - for all that you may dislike my style for all that you really would prefer not to agree with me there is one simple truth at play here. When I feck about I feck about and I understand it won't be to everyone's taste although some appear to be amused almost to the same degree as I am. When I talk about rugby I very seldom do anything but talk absolute good sense. I suppose its just a talent I am burdened with

So in truth you should pat yourself firmly & in a congratulatory fashion on the back, for having the ability to see the wood for the trees.

Bet you really love me now Thing is its all great & good to be pally but I often find that just too difficult.

I read that you and DL are old sparring partners with no animosity between you and I'm glad to hear it. He is not a bad chap really I'm sure & he certainly cares a lot more than most of the retiring one sentence brigade. Strangely I do actually look forward to reading his output much as there is often stuff I have an opposite opinion on.

[brianc]

So in truth you should pat yourself firmly & in a congratulatory fashion on the back, for having the ability to see the wood for the trees.

Bet you really love me now Thing is its all great & good to be pally but I often find that just too difficult.

It is just that it is soooooo much more fun to tell you are a beeeeepin beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!

[darkside lightside]

Well BAGOA, unfortunately I was unable to come on here to congratulate Kidney after we ‘stuffed’ Wales but anyway…

The point you make about professional player numbers I actually addressed – by pointing out that regardless of overall player numbers, the pro players in most nations are a small elite at the top of a wide-based pyramid. And I’d be interested to hear what you’re basing your assertion that Ireland have a ‘miniscule’ pool of players on – and I’d be very interested to hear where you’re getting Argentina’s ‘massive’ pool of pro players from …

The point about NZ is an interesting one, basically the ITM Cup is a high-quality club game underneath the super XV. For me however, the starting point is the same – from an early age they are exposed to better coaching, this leads to them being better players, this leads to their club game being better and getting TV coverage and crowds, so they can pay the players, and this leads to strong super XV teams and a strong international team..

I would say that Ireland has a comparable, or greater, number of full-time pro players to Italy, Wales, Scotland, Argentina and Australia. I would also say that the gap with England and France wouldn’t be as wide as you might think on the face of it – what % of the top 14 and the AP aren’t qualified to play for France or Eng respectively? 30%? 40%?

The fact that we, in spite of our supposedly puny player resources, have beaten England, with all the advantages of their massive player resources, 7 times out of the last 8 should give some food for thought to the ‘player number determinists’ in our midst ..

[brianc]

Here is a little mathmetical puzzle for you study over tea break tomorrow DL. England & France pick their international side from 12 & 14 teams respectively. Ireland & Wales pick their teams from 4 professional teams, Scotland & Italy from 2 teams. Try to work from that what you think the order might be in the 6N this year & most years?

Finished your tea? Yep, England & France will finish in top 2, Wales & Ireland will be middle 2, Scotland & Italy will be bottom 2. See any similarity with what actually happened?

It is only the utter stupidity of the league arrangements in France & England, (too many matches, too many overseas players etc), that gives us any chance of occassionally finishing above them, (long may that continue by the way ).

Anyway, getting a bit fed up with this whole subject, one poster said somewhere else that we "haven't moved on from 2 years ago". That would have been the year that Ireland & Irish teams won every tournament available, grand slam, churchill cup, U20s, Magners & Heiny. How in the name of feck could we move on from that???? Happened because of a crop of players who may never reappear, some people call them Golden Generation, I personally dont care what they are called.

[backawaygoonahead]

DL, of course there are no foreign players at all involved with the Irish provinces that I can remember. NO........hold on a minute........Ulster, think we have some foreign chappies........Piennar, Botha,Wannenburg, Muller,Danielli oh & that Dalek chap............even some of our Irish/Ulstermen are or were foreigners - Court, D'Arcy, Tuohy .....Boss............but I'm sure Munster or Leinster don't have any though..........oh wait a second...........think I could be wrong again. Connacht? Oh yes, my word.....so do they.

Lets not be ridiculous. The teams I quoted have huge numbers compared to us. Indeed England & France both have professional 2nd divisions for feck sake. Not only have they enormously greater numbers of players, they have larger squads by and large also.

As for NZ - the bloody place is coming down with rugby professionals. On Argentina I may have to relent, I remembered a quote from a few years back from Les Cusworth who was (don't know if he still is) tasked with developing professional rugby in Argentina. He said there were 400 Argentinian players in leagues in Europe. In retrospect I can't be sure that they were 400 pro players. I did find it after a search and it was in the Guardian so ever more doubtful

DL, got to be honest here, your statement

The point you make about professional player numbers I actually addressed – by pointing out that regardless of overall player numbers, the pro players in most nations are a small elite at the top of a wide-based pyramid.

does as little to address pro player numbers as the designer of the Titanic did to address successfully the possibility of hitting a huge fecking iceberg in the Atlantic. Inadequate would be kind to your idea of addressing that issue.

Finally, your inability to congratulate Deccie on the win in Wales was sadly stolen away from you by a half-witted Scot & a deeply confused South African with "previous" for wrongly allowing a try. I think you will agree, because only a buffoon wouldn't, that Wales could still be playing Ireland without coming close to scoring a legitimate try.

Don't despair however, you now have the opportunity to look back on the last 7 weeks and realise that much of what was wrong at the outset has been improved considerably as the curtain falls on a poor all-round 6Ns.