words fail me

[rumncoke]

if memory serves Cullen had a couple of Irish Caps from the bench before he went to leicester away back 2002 he was not introduced by DK but never really broke into the team and still hasn't developed (in my view ) into an International player . he gets there by virtue of the fact as second rows go he is light and easy to lift and therefore helps tp secure possession at a line out.

Given the nature of the modern game where most teams kick "in field" rather than to touch it is an asset that maybe overvalued but saying that a bad lineout can be a liability that would be exploited.The other facet of Cullens game is his ability to regularly find himself over the ball ( in from the side and down ) without being penalised something of an Irish McGaw at ruck time.

[cables]

Yes Cables, that is my view - NH rugby seasons should be the end point of contracts for players & coaches. I very firmly feel that the RWC is no more relevant a break point than a series of autumn "friendlies" or a 6Ns campaign albeit the latter does signify the end of an international season for this country.

If appointments were terminated at the end of NH season it would create an excellent opportunity to review performances without undue haste and a scramble for a successor should that be what is determined as the way forward. It would allow from April to September to find a successor. I would consider this to be particularly useful in RWC years when the unrealistic expectations of a world cup event have dissapated and the under fire coach has an opportunity to restore his stock with a successful 6Ns.

I think it all hinges on you view of the RWC. If you genuinely feel it is a reasonable target for an Irish coach then fine, hire and fire based on the performance within those 6-8 weeks every 4 years. If like me you think an Irish coach's target should be in winning their next international fixture & the one after that then what I have suggested makes hugely more sense with the guy's performance being considered over a period of years rather than weeks being the criteria.

Never forget, and at the risk of irritating DL, we have a small pool of pro players and it doesn't take more than 2 or 3 injuries in a few crucial sparsely covered position for Ireland's RWC aspirations to crumble. Do you really think then that those few weeks are what an Irish coach should be based upon?

Seems that you, like me, would subscribe to the view that it was the IRFU who were initially misguided by tying the coach contract to the end of RWC this year. Following the 6N would appear to be the optimum time for a review and the review should cover the whole period of the contract just as you advocate. I am however wary of the 'marketplace' timing pressures on contract signings for coaches and players. We cannot operate in isolation.

I never did think that a review should only cover a few weeks BTW.

[BaggyTrousers]

I never did think that a review should only cover a few weeks BTW.

My "you" in that sentence should be interpreted as the local "yousons"

[cables]

if memory serves Cullen had a couple of Irish Caps from the bench before he went to leicester away back 2002 he was not introduced by DK

15 caps (10 as replacement before going to Leicester)
4 starting caps while at Leicester (EOS time - v mainly minor unions)
Was back at Blackrock before used by DK
29 Caps (17 as replacement) total

[cables]

I never did think that a review should only cover a few weeks BTW.

My "you" in that sentence should be interpreted as the local "yousons"

Even better but I was unsure.

[pwrmoore]

The stand-out thing to me is that I cannot see why there is any need to do anything today when his contract does not expire until after the RWC. There is no incentive to perform generated by extending the contract now.

Surely you tell the guy "take them to the world cup, do your best with them and then we'll talk about what you're worth for any possible extension". Obviously there is a risk that his standing improves because of a stunning RWC run and you have to pay more to keep him. But that is a lovely problem to come up against and with the team performing well there would be extra ticket sales to offset the extra cost. And if he prices himself out of the IRFUs reach another coach would be much more attracted to a high performing team so no issue there. If he makes a hash of it at least you have the opportunity to replace him immediately after the RWC in time for next 6N.

Extending now serves no purpose.

[BaggyTrousers]

The stand-out thing to me is that I cannot see why there is any need to do anything today when his contract does not expire until after the RWC. There is no incentive to perform generated by extending the contract now.

Surely you tell the guy "take them to the world cup, do your best with them and then we'll talk about what you're worth for any possible extension". Obviously there is a risk that his standing improves because of a stunning RWC run and you have to pay more to keep him. But that is a lovely problem to come up against and with the team performing well there would be extra ticket sales to offset the extra cost. And if he prices himself out of the IRFUs reach another coach would be much more attracted to a high performing team so no issue there. If he makes a hash of it at least you have the opportunity to replace him immediately after the RWC in time for next 6N.

Extending now serves no purpose.

Words fail me PWR, do you really think Kidney and the rest of the coaches will put anything less than 100% into the RWC because of the extension to the contract? I would be staggered were that the case.

To me this seems more like an employer being 90% - !00% happy with their employees and wanting to send them off to their next engagement free from the worries that judgment based on a few weeks work rather than the term of the employment will have on their future employment.

For you and I rugby is a passion which we switch on and off at our leisure. For the players & coaches you would hope it is a passion but primarily it is their job. Security of employment is important to all of us & to me this is excellent man management by the oft criticised IRFU in sending them to do the job knowing their necks aren't on the line.

For NZ perhaps the expectations of winning are not just realistic but paramount given their reputation as chokers in the RWC so you would expect Henry's neck to be on the line. SA? De Villiers probably has the same pressure however in Australia, Robbie Deans has had exactly the same treatment as the Irish set up and it would be hard to see England getting rid of Johnno it England are as bad as I hope.

Of the NH countries I would imagine that Wales have the reputation for sacking the failing RWC coach which they will more than likely continue & of course Italy have already made their new appointment prior to the RWC. Who has the greater incentive - Deccie to continue his work or Nick Mallet who knows whatever happens he is offski ?

Good job IRFU & I don't often say that.

[pwrmoore]

the point is that there is no need to do anything now. I don't buy the argument that the coach will perform better knowing his employment is secure for 2 more years. So what purpose does extending now actually serve?

[Dublin4]

I bet you there is a confidential clause in Kidney's contract allowing the Union to terminate his contract in the event of poor performance or poor outcome from the RWC.
It makes sense, though, to tie him up if he does well.
Lansdowne Road authorities have moved on since the EOS debacle.

[ColinM]

Words would fail me if there wasnt an early termination after the world cup, however its a bit ambiguous to allow termination on poor performance, so its probably linked to qualifying from the group or something equally rubbish

[BaggyTrousers]

My point gentlemen is that the timing of the extension is perfectly understandable for the reasons I have already stated at some length.

If and when you obtain a copy of the contract that may well be the time to go into the minutiae of clauses, exit strategies etc etc. until then we are simply whistling Dixie, using our powers of imagination and blowing smoke up our respective nipsies.

Dublin 4: Do I understand from you post that you would feel a poor RWC campaign should be cause for termination? I simply ask because as outlined I believe it to be not quite but almost irrelevant to an Irish coaches job spec, accepting that many will disagree.

The job spec should be to oversee the process of the development of international class players through liaison with the provincial coaches & training camps and to ensure the maximum return of victories in international matches irrespective of the tournament in question. In simple terms, for Ireland the RWC should not be considered as any more important than our other fixtures

Other views are of course as valid as mine but throwing everything at the RWC every 4 years is a vacuous idea and I suspect will remain so in my lifetime.

To expand this in one simple way I give you this possibility to consider. BOD may well be facing his last RWC as a player. If you place undue importance on the RWC you would have to think that post 2011 RWC he should go.

Really? What a waste of a still magnificent talent that would be. Players careers no more than coaches should not be ridiculously tied to a 4 year cycle of an event taking a smattering of weeks. It should logically be considered by either the player's own edict as to their retirement or more importantly the coaches decision as to the ongoing worth of the player to the national team.

Until such times as Ireland has the depth of talent to compete realistically at successive RWCs that should be our approach.

[Dublin4]

Baggy Trousers,
Yes. A poor RWC should be grounds for termination of the coach. That's what should have happened in 2007. Professional sport is a results business and qualification for the quarter finals, maybe semi finals, is what I expect the bar to be at.
The RWC is the standard measure by which we assess our team and the standing of rugby internationally.

[BaggyTrousers]

Baggy Trousers,
Yes. A poor RWC should be grounds for termination of the coach. That's what should have happened in 2007. Professional sport is a results business and qualification for the quarter finals, maybe semi finals, is what I expect the bar to be at.
The RWC is the standard measure by which we assess our team and the standing of rugby internationally.

Whilst I completely & utterly disagree with almost your entire post I respect your viewpoint. What I can certainly agree with is that anything short of a quarter final would be an abysmal failure however unlike you it would not make me consider pulling the trigger on perhaps the only coach in the country who has what its takes to win things.

I also consider that a semi-final would be an over-achievement based on the draw of this RWC, should you concur then based on your viewpoint I suggest that you would instantly suggest increasing Deccie's tenure until the end of the next RWC? I wouldn't, would you?

A side issue I suppose but lets say Italy trounce us & we return to the 40 shades of green in complete disarray with the entire media & the majority of fans calling for Deccie's head on a platter. Who would be on your shortlist to replace the admirable Kidney? (Candidates should preferably be Irish, have a proven track record, not be a Matt Williams - Frano combination for any number of reasons, if not Irish being available would help.)

[Dublin4]

If Ireland do a Lens on it and crash out at the group stage then it really would be the scaffold for Kidney. I honestly think he can do very very well, maybe even a semi? So I am not expecting Lens II. MInd you, the Aussies looked very good against the boks.

There will always be new coaches. We thought we wouldn't replace Cheka here in Leinster too quickly and when Joe Schmidt lost every game last September the knives were being sharpened for him. Now he walks on water. Cheka or Schmidt could do it. I don't know if McGahan or McLoughlin would be in the territory yet.

Anyway I really believe Kidney is going to achieve progress with this team. Remember it's the end for loads of good players. They want to bury memories of 07.

[BaggyTrousers]

D4, so glad you mentioned Jo Schmo. He is a classic example of the folly of judging someone over a matter of weeks, it is heinously stupid.

Would that all who called for his sacking would form an orderly queue for absolution, it would be some queue. For me he is unproven as a head coach over a sustained period albeit he has made a great start. Cheka? Not for me and as for Bumper & McGlock, I'm not impressed by Bumper & I fear that Munster have another popular amongst the players antipodean but I reckon they will struggle to reassert themselves as an HC force under McGahan. McGlock is a baby in coaching terms but sadly not in years, much as I like him. Will be a while before that becomes an option.

After all that, I maintain that there is no viable alternative to Kidney as things stand and like you I don't expect Ireland to return humiliated at the group stage - just as well. Hopefully that won't always be the position but it very much is now, purely in my opinion of course.