Wales in 'not actually that great' shocker!!

[brianc]

Ireland are better, and should have beaten them both at the WC and at home, but Gatland played Kidney both times like a fiddle.

DL, you honestly do yourself no favours at all by ruining every half decent post you make by an inane comment about DK. I think everyone here would now welcome a change, but did he sh*g yer ma or something??? Ireland lost to Wales because young Fergus McFadden missed one crucial tackle, a cowardly touch judge failed to recommend a red card, & a half decent ref gave a very soft penalty against Ferris. Very hard to see how all this is entirely DK's fault .

Ireland are playing badly, I dont entirely agree with current selections, & I am bemused by some of our tactics, but we were still close to be competing for a grand slam next week. I think everyone knows you hate DK, but give it a rest

[bazzaj]

A real 'if your granny had balls' of a thread. Still there appears to some enjoying it.

Think most threads are similar in that respect Bagster.
Always enjoy a rugby related debate no matter how pointless they may seem.
Beats the hell out of discussing politics or the recession.
Now that truely is pointless.

[Bart S]

I doubt Tuohy would be 1st choice for Wales, Faletau would be ahead of Pedrie at 8 and Wallace wouldn't get a look in as 1st choice centre.

I'd therefore maybe pick 6 Ulster players max in a combined XV, but 3 of these would be non Irish qualified.

I'm sure welshmen could argue for each of Rees, Lydiate and Cuthbert against Best, Ferris and Trimble though!

Something like this is always going to be subjective, I don't think the Welsh second rows are that great, even AW Jones seems to have slowed down a bit. I think Tuohy would have a great chance.

I personally would pick Paddy, I accept most people would go with Roberts at 12 - for me that opens the question as to Davies or Cave at 13, I would go with Cave.

I'd have Wannenberg (or Henry for that matter) over Faletau any day of the week - talk about over-hyped... he's not a great ball carrier, knocks on quite a bit, he does a good bit of graft but that's it.

My point is simply that we shouldn't be too quick to buy into the inevitable hype that will accompany their championship/Slam next weekend. They're a good side, but not that special - Ireland are better, and should have beaten them both at the WC and at home, but Gatland played Kidney both times like a fiddle.

Faletau was an integral part of a backrow which destroyed Ireland's in the RWC and was also the key protagonist when their backrow completely outplayed ours at the Aviva, despite only having half of their first chocie one available (Lydiate out and Warburton only played a half). He was very good in the world cup.

Henry has done well for Ulster this season but as a no.8 I'd say he'd be wwell down the Ireland pecking order. Many Ulster fans may feel he should be on the bench for Ireland because of his versatility but I honestly don't believe most would pick him in their 1st chocie back row.


Yes Cave has potential but Davies has performed well at international level and I can't see how you can say Cave would be ahead of him right now.

I do think there's an element here of looking at particular Welsh players on a day they have underperformed and saying that a certain Ulster player (on a good day) would be better than that, which is probably true. however you have to look at overall performances and I can't see how Cave, Wallace or Henry would get in ahead of their welsh counterparts. Ryan Jones outplayed Ferris at the Aviva but if a welshman used that one game as an argument for picking him ahead of 1F I'd strong disagree with that.

On the question of whether Ireland are better than Wales, I can understand your frustration and to an extent I agree - Ireland should definitely have beaten Wales at the Aviva as Wales were significantly weakened. However I'd say they are a better side than ireland overall right now and that if they played 10 times, Wales should win say 6 or 7. Ireland should beat them a few times and when weakened, should definitely beat them, which is why the opening defeat was so disappointing and seemed so tactically naive. They've ridden their luck a little bit in the tournament but Gatland has got them in the right place mentally which has seen them through so far.

Finally, just remember that Ireland are at best, in the mix with the others. For every time you tear your hair out after a defeat against a team you feel we should beat, there'll be a frenchman, englishman or whoever bemoaning the fact that his side can't be ireland, who "barring a few good players are vastly overrated."

[breakdown]

I doubt Tuohy would be 1st choice for Wales, Faletau would be ahead of Pedrie at 8 and Wallace wouldn't get a look in as 1st choice centre.

I'd therefore maybe pick 6 Ulster players max in a combined XV, but 3 of these would be non Irish qualified.

I'm sure welshmen could argue for each of Rees, Lydiate and Cuthbert against Best, Ferris and Trimble though!

Something like this is always going to be subjective, I don't think the Welsh second rows are that great, even AW Jones seems to have slowed down a bit. I think Tuohy would have a great chance.

I personally would pick Paddy, I accept most people would go with Roberts at 12 - for me that opens the question as to Davies or Cave at 13, I would go with Cave.

I'd have Wannenberg (or Henry for that matter) over Faletau any day of the week - talk about over-hyped... he's not a great ball carrier, knocks on quite a bit, he does a good bit of graft but that's it.

My point is simply that we shouldn't be too quick to buy into the inevitable hype that will accompany their championship/Slam next weekend. They're a good side, but not that special - Ireland are better, and should have beaten them both at the WC and at home, but Gatland played Kidney both times like a fiddle.

Faletau was an integral part of a backrow which destroyed Ireland's in the RWC and was also the key protagonist when their backrow completely outplayed ours at the Aviva, despite only having half of their first chocie one available (Lydiate out and Warburton only played a half). He was very good in the world cup.

Henry has done well for Ulster this season but as a no.8 I'd say he'd be wwell down the Ireland pecking order. Many Ulster fans may feel he should be on the bench for Ireland because of his versatility but I honestly don't believe most would pick him in their 1st chocie back row.


Yes Cave has potential but Davies has performed well at international level and I can't see how you can say Cave would be ahead of him right now.

I do think there's an element here of looking at particular Welsh players on a day they have underperformed and saying that a certain Ulster player (on a good day) would be better than that, which is probably true. however you have to look at overall performances and I can't see how Cave, Wallace or Henry would get in ahead of their welsh counterparts. Ryan Jones outplayed Ferris at the Aviva but if a welshman used that one game as an argument for picking him ahead of 1F I'd strong disagree with that.

On the question of whether Ireland are better than Wales, I can understand your frustration and to an extent I agree - Ireland should definitely have beaten Wales at the Aviva as Wales were significantly weakened. However I'd say they are a better side than ireland overall right now and that if they played 10 times, Wales should win say 6 or 7. Ireland should beat them a few times and when weakened, should definitely beat them, which is why the opening defeat was so disappointing and seemed so tactically naive. They've ridden their luck a little bit in the tournament but Gatland has got them in the right place mentally which has seen them through so far.

Finally, just remember that Ireland are at best, in the mix with the others. For every time you tear your hair out after a defeat against a team you feel we should beat, there'll be a frenchman, englishman or whoever bemoaning the fact that his side can't be ireland, who "barring a few good players are vastly overrated."

For me it would be:

1. Court
2. Best
3. Afoa
4. Davis
5. Muller
6. Fez
7. Warburton
8. Falatau
9. Pienaar
10. Priestland
11. Trimble
12. Roberts
13. Cave
14. North
15. Terblanche (although it was a very tough call)

Ulsters whole front row could get on imo. Court has consistantly played well at prop for Ireland and his ability to play both sides help. His game against Leicester also proved he can compete against the best, destroy them and come out on top. Best is far better than Rees, maybe not in the lineout but certainly around the breakdown and the park, and, well, Afoa is Afoa, world class.

Muller would defienetly get on in the 2nd row, great player and always gives his all. Bradley Davis would be there, Wales' best 2nd row imo.

Ferris is the obvious choice at 6, and so is Faletau and SW at 7&8, great players. I'd pick Faletau ahead of Pedrie because although P3 is bigger Faletau brings a lot more to the game, his carrying stats and tackling stats prove it.

Pienaar would obviously get ahead of Phillips at 9 anyday, world class player and his speed of delievery is next to no one's imo.

Priestland would be at 10 because well iHumph isnt anything special.

Trimble and North on the wings obviously, Trimble because of his form and experience ahead of Cuthburt and North because of his form, pace and power.

Roberts and Cave at midfield, a real battering ram 12 and a very good 13 going forward and in defense.

Terblanche edges it for me. Halfpenny is very good yes but does some quick stupid things during games and isnt quite the complete article yet. Although Terblanche has got some critiscism I think he would get there, really class player and real calm. Adds so much experience to the back 3.

[darkside lightside]

On the question of whether Ireland are better than Wales, I can understand your frustration and to an extent I agree - Ireland should definitely have beaten Wales at the Aviva as Wales were significantly weakened. However I'd say they are a better side than ireland overall right now and that if they played 10 times, Wales should win say 6 or 7. Ireland should beat them a few times and when weakened, should definitely beat them, which is why the opening defeat was so disappointing and seemed so tactically naive. They've ridden their luck a little bit in the tournament but Gatland has got them in the right place mentally which has seen them through so far.

We should have beaten Wales hands-down at the Aviva - not because they were weakened, because we are the better side. I honestly and sincerely think that a well-coached Ireland side, playing to a progressive and insightful gameplan, under a progressive and insightful head coach, would beat them 8-9 times out of 10; and furthermore we would now be on track to claim our 3rd or 4th Slam in the last 10 years. I can guarantee you 100% if you sat down with POC, or Ferris, or BOD or anyone, and get them to speak completely honestly - they'll probably accept that NZ can put out a stronger side than Ireland, but I guarantee they won't accept for a second that Wales can...

I actually don't 'hate' Kidney (don't hate anyone, but that's by the by) but what I do hate is how quickly the Irish assume the underdog status; you can rationalise it away by saying at least we're not arrogant blah blah, ar$ewash, it's cowardly, it;s the easy way out - and it's why Kidney is still in a job... We routinely massage down our expectations in the face of under-performance, exaggerate the strength of the opposition, anything to avoid facing up to the fact that we're not delivering. What I hate is under-achievement, and the cowardly desire to rationalise it away...

Nobody can deny that Ireland has a wealth of talent at its disposal, and I think we have become blase about this - if the Welsh or Scottish, in fact even the English, clubs were throwing their weight around in Europe the way ours have been in the last couple of seasons, expectations would be massive at international level, and we would be expecting Ireland to come up second best against them. However when its our clubs, all we seem to want to do is come up with BS rationslisations for why somehow it makes sense that this doesn't translate into international success.

It genuinely pains me to have to go from watching talented, confident Irish players doing great things with their clubs - to watching the same players muddling along in some awful negative mish-mash of a gameplan.. I'm serious, I spend half the time watching Ireland with my head literally in my hands.

Can anyone come on here and say that watching Ireland excites them? Does anybody believe that we can actually win something meaningful under the current coaches? Does anyone think they're getting the best out of the players at their disposal? Does anyone think we're going in the right direction? I visit a couple of Irish fan sites, and overwhelmingly there is no belief, or respect for Kidney as head coach - the clear sense is one of a kind of depressed resignation, allied with a desire that your club's players stay fit. Is that the best we can hope for??

For pretty much all my life, the Irish rugby team has been the biggy - the one team which I really care about; as I've got older, I've become increasingly disinterested in football, to the extent that I can no longer sit and watch a live match (and can just about make it through the first half of MOTD if there are a couple of big matches); club rugby (by which I mean Ulster) has obviously become a bigger deal over the last 15 years, which is great, and long may it continue, but Ireland is my first love. And it really pains and upsets me to see such talent and potential pi$$ed up against the wall.

Bart - I realise I've gone off on one a bit not even sure I've responded to your post, but I'm utterly off with the state of the national side, and also off with how, when you express dissatisfaction with our below-par results and performances, it seems to be the instinct of a lot of fans to disparage you either as a kind of obsessive nutter, or unrealistic fantasist!!! If only we, fans, journalists, pundits, could grow a pair, call a spade a spade, and hold our coaches properly to account...

[brianc]

Well I seriously give up, what a load of unadultered infantile tripe . I doubt anyone is entirely pleased with Ireland, despite being top try scorers, & desperately unlucky not to be going for a grand slam, (anyone see Paddy O'Brien's comments in Indo today?). All I was "trying" to say, (& I am mystified as to why this makes me "cowardly" or anything else that our resident mad banker accuses me off), is that I doubt it is ALL Dk's fault. End of my attempt at persuasion, over to Baggy

[darkside lightside]

Well I seriously give up, what a load of unadultered infantile tripe . I doubt anyone is entirely pleased with Ireland, despite being top try scorers, & desperately unlucky not to be going for a grand slam, (anyone see Paddy O'Brien's comments in Indo today?). All I was "trying" to say, (& I am mystified as to why this makes me "cowardly" or anything else that our resident mad banker accuses me off), is that I doubt it is ALL Dk's fault. End of my attempt at persuasion, over to Baggy

brian - in order: when they start awarding championships on the basis of tries scored, give me a call; I wasn't accusing you, or anyone individual specifically, of being cowardly, it's a broad, general point; I specifically am not saying it's all DK's fault.

[Jackie Brown]

The telling difference between Ireland and Wales is in the coaches.

[Bart S]

The telling difference between Ireland and Wales is in the coaches.

what a difference a year makes....http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... m-WRU.html

[darkside lightside]

The telling difference between Ireland and Wales is in the coaches.

what a difference a year makes....http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... m-WRU.html

That's the striking thing, Wales have finished 4th in the tournament for the past 3 years, albeit twice on points difference (effectively joint second). Given the players at their disposal, that was probably about par for them - but about par doesn't generally cut it, which is why Gatland was under a bit of pressure. What is impressive is how he reacted to that - he still doesn't have a world-beating squad, but he refreshed it profoundly and has single-mindedly set about working up tactics that play to the strengths of the players in his group. And he has caught a few breaks along the way, but he is reaping rewards.

While plodding along with essentially the same behind-the-curve tactics, producing one really good performance a year, not winning anything, but consoling ourselves that it's all good enough...

[Neil F]

DS; I'm not known to agree with your views about Kidney all that often but I do agree with something you allude to in your post: I think a major part of a coach's job, certainly at international level where you are completely restricted to the kind of players the nation has produced at a particular time, is about finding the best tactics to suit the best group of players, not about getting a group of players to play your preferred game plan as well as possible, or selecting the players best suited to implementing your preferred game plan. Kidney, I fear, can be a little guilty of this.

[Bart S]

I don't have the stats to back this up but I would suspect that on average, Ireland have been the 2nd most consistent team results wise (after France) in the 6 Nations over the past decade (ie since EOS and DK have been in charge).

However when it comes to actually winning things during this period we fall down badly. Wales are going for their 3rd GS during this period and England will have a GS, and a championship....(not to mention that other comp they won in 2003...).

Frustrating to see Wales periodically peak (and then generally disappear to the lower regions of the tables for a few years) whilst we generally maintain a higher level, but very rarely scale the peaks....

[BuckRogers]

Not really sure where I stand on this. Individually I think Wales have a telling class difference in some key positions notably in the forms of North, Davies and Roberts they have three of the best/biggest/most powerful players in their positon currently playing international rugby. If you can get these guys into something even resembling space then they will cause damage. Compared to Ireland's backline they are monsters and ultimately it was this size difference that combined with a poor attempted tackle that cost us the game (McFadden). What was frustrating in this game in particular was Ireland's tactics, kicking ball needlessly and poorly to the Welsh was always going to be a recipe for disaster but we did it time and again. Blame here can be split between Kidney's obvious instructions combined with Sexton's poor execution. Beyond that when we held onto the ball we actually did cause them trouble which again is extremely frustrating.

I think this championship has taught, or forced, Kidney that he needed to change his game-plan and tactics which has largely worked as the Championship has worn on. Bearing in mind we have been missing BOD, our single most important player, then if we do indeed finish second that shouldn't be sniffed at. One thing is for sure, BOD would have taken concussion to stop North dead in his tracks.

I'd echo the frustrations of others but I am not sure that Kidney could really do much more than he has done this championship save for playing a better, less conservative brand of rugby against the Welsh but that is said with hindsight. I'd expect Ireland to beat England at Twickers and then for Kidney to use the summer to add a proper attack coach to the roster and also look to keep moving forward with improving our game-plan.

Lose against England however and all bets are off, they're improving but Ireland have had their number for almost a decade now and a loss would be extremely hard to stomach.

[brianc]

An extremely well thought out & balanced post Buck , I would imagine pretty much what all the sane ones on here think. Of course Wales have more real "current" class than us, doubt even DL could argue McFadden is in Davies or Roberts class. We have a few very good players, some of whom are slightly past it, but look at some of the avearge guys we have, Ross, O'Callaghan, Reddan, Darcy, Earls??? None of them would get on a Wales second team. But again you are right DK must start to think differently, we all agree.

Probably not much point in answering DL, but will give it one last try, (terrible pun ). I dont recall saying anything about most tries winning tournaments, but I do recall endless, mindnumbling repetitive pages of your posts berating DK tactics involving Ireland kicking the ball away all the time, was just pointing out that this is hard to align with being top try scorers. (Bit like Big Al calling for new attack coach when UR are leading try scorers, just doesnt make sense).

[BaggyTrousers]

On the question of whether Ireland are better than Wales, I can understand your frustration and to an extent I agree - Ireland should definitely have beaten Wales at the Aviva as Wales were significantly weakened. However I'd say they are a better side than ireland overall right now and that if they played 10 times, Wales should win say 6 or 7. Ireland should beat them a few times and when weakened, should definitely beat them, which is why the opening defeat was so disappointing and seemed so tactically naive. They've ridden their luck a little bit in the tournament but Gatland has got them in the right place mentally which has seen them through so far.

We should have beaten Wales hands-down at the Aviva - not because they were weakened, because we are the better side. I honestly and sincerely think that a well-coached Ireland side, playing to a progressive and insightful gameplan, under a progressive and insightful head coach, would beat them 8-9 times out of 10; and furthermore we would now be on track to claim our 3rd or 4th Slam in the last 10 years. I can guarantee you 100% if you sat down with POC, or Ferris, or BOD or anyone, and get them to speak completely honestly - they'll probably accept that NZ can put out a stronger side than Ireland, but I guarantee they won't accept for a second that Wales can...

I actually don't 'hate' Kidney (don't hate anyone, but that's by the by) but what I do hate is how quickly the Irish assume the underdog status; you can rationalise it away by saying at least we're not arrogant blah blah, ar$ewash, it's cowardly, it;s the easy way out - and it's why Kidney is still in a job... We routinely massage down our expectations in the face of under-performance, exaggerate the strength of the opposition, anything to avoid facing up to the fact that we're not delivering. What I hate is under-achievement, and the cowardly desire to rationalise it away...

Nobody can deny that Ireland has a wealth of talent at its disposal, and I think we have become blase about this - if the Welsh or Scottish, in fact even the English, clubs were throwing their weight around in Europe the way ours have been in the last couple of seasons, expectations would be massive at international level, and we would be expecting Ireland to come up second best against them. However when its our clubs, all we seem to want to do is come up with BS rationslisations for why somehow it makes sense that this doesn't translate into international success.

It genuinely pains me to have to go from watching talented, confident Irish players doing great things with their clubs - to watching the same players muddling along in some awful negative mish-mash of a gameplan.. I'm serious, I spend half the time watching Ireland with my head literally in my hands.

Can anyone come on here and say that watching Ireland excites them? Does anybody believe that we can actually win something meaningful under the current coaches? Does anyone think they're getting the best out of the players at their disposal? Does anyone think we're going in the right direction? I visit a couple of Irish fan sites, and overwhelmingly there is no belief, or respect for Kidney as head coach - the clear sense is one of a kind of depressed resignation, allied with a desire that your club's players stay fit. Is that the best we can hope for??

For pretty much all my life, the Irish rugby team has been the biggy - the one team which I really care about; as I've got older, I've become increasingly disinterested in football, to the extent that I can no longer sit and watch a live match (and can just about make it through the first half of MOTD if there are a couple of big matches); club rugby (by which I mean Ulster) has obviously become a bigger deal over the last 15 years, which is great, and long may it continue, but Ireland is my first love. And it really pains and upsets me to see such talent and potential pi$$ed up against the wall.

Bart - I realise I've gone off on one a bit not even sure I've responded to your post, but I'm utterly off with the state of the national side, and also off with how, when you express dissatisfaction with our below-par results and performances, it seems to be the instinct of a lot of fans to disparage you either as a kind of obsessive nutter, or unrealistic fantasist!!! If only we, fans, journalists, pundits, could grow a pair, call a spade a spade, and hold our coaches properly to account...

Ah DL you took the words right out of my mouth. But thats just a bit trite so here is my rational realistic view with a spade called a spade and in full possession of a huge pair of clankers:

Full-back: Kearney with Felix Jones the only relatively raw & untested but highly promising 15. Kearney has only just returned to flying form after a couple of grim years for both form & injury - Kidney's fault? NO
14: Bowe is the only class act here but there are some decent players and one or two who may be quality
13: BOD missing is a body blow to any team, Cave if fit could have had a shout but I wonder is he a shade slow for international rugby despite having everything else especially a great rugby brain, Earls has done pretty well in teh 6Ns though clearly nobody here will say so.
12: Pretty bare cupboard with D'Arcy & Wallace teh 2 best but D'Arcy isn't the player he was.
11: Trimble/Earls the pick but not a huge clamour to take the spot from elsewhere, including Gilroy who would be savaged.
10: Sexton who may finally be getting to grips with it and 35 yo ROG after that absolutely nothing, zilch, zero.
9: A collection of half-decent players none of whom would get in a decent side - Murray may progress.
8: Heaslip but not too much behind him that I'm aware of
7: Davy Wallace is35, POM may be ok, who knows, SOB struggling furiously & needs to kick some English ass this weekend, again nothing else behind this
6: Ferris, SOB and maybe the likes of Henry & Muldoon but would you really want to see either against a proper team much as I rate both highly at club level.
4 & 5: A bit like scrum half, quite a few decent players but other than the old firm, not anything overly convincing
3: A disaster area, Ross and absolutely nobody else, TC is not a 3 of any class at all & is done a disservice by being played there.
2: Rory of course, what then? I'm not a fan of Cronin, lots of action but its perspiration without inspiration. Strauss could be ok when IQ, I like Varley's style but his arrows are duff.
1: Healy could become a legend, starting to at last to scrummage well which is fine as he is still a propping nipper & excellent all round. TC is a very decent loosehead also but clearly no 2. PaddyMac has a lot to learn as have the other young props about none of whom look wonderful as yet.

So where DL is this well of talent you keep insisting is there? Where are they hiding? There are promising youngish players but who amongst them have you seen star in the HC who has stepped up on the Wolfies and made you say he is the real deal? If you have seen them, God bless your eyesight & I must be blind.

Can anyone come on here and say that watching Ireland excites them? Does anybody believe that we can actually win something meaningful under the current coaches? Does anyone think they're getting the best out of the players at their disposal? Does anyone think we're going in the right direction? I visit a couple of Irish fan sites, and overwhelmingly there is no belief, or respect for Kidney as head coach - the clear sense is one of a kind of depressed resignation, allied with a desire that your club's players stay fit. Is that the best we can hope for??

I think this bit of your post says a lot in several respects:

1) yes, I have been on the edge of my seat watching the TV contests but live at the Italy match was not the same as I was bathed in warm sunshine, had the start of a Guinness buzz which I built on with a measure of expertise difficult for the younger less experienced fan to emulate. I have always been charged up by the 6Ns & though the buzz is not what it was before regular live rugby with Ulster became my first love, it remains, though I must say, the AIs & RWCs don't really get the blood pumping & don't get me started on any Lions drivel
2) I would pose a different question - Does anyone believe we still have a strong enough squad for any coach to win a title? As has often been said, a national coach can't go out and buy a player in a weak position & we have several.
3) Yes I believe we are going in the right direction in terms of the style of play, the problem being that the age profile of the players good enough to make a difference, is going the wrong direction. I believe that Ireland can put 20 or so decent to good players on the pitch but not an awesome bench. That just isn't good enough, we need a full 23 good players with some of those genuine stars. 23 good players will not win championships, you need a few great ones in the mix.
4) Stop with the fan sites nonsense. Yes every site will have the odd sage about - ususally long past their sell by date - but lets be honest, such sites are generally composed of the enthusiastic nerd, many of whom don't know their Brennan from a hole in the ground & they are places where any fool can spill there guts of whatever bile they wish. In short fan sites where nom de plumes are de rigeur are famed for lunatic crap much as I believe our wee site is a beacon of light when viewed against most and in particular Munsternumpties & D4Clowns. What people say on the majority of these sites should be swallowed with a bakeful of salt.

DL, I wish I could be more kind to you for it is obvious, as I've said before, that you love your rugby and are busting yer ballix to convince everyone that because you have such belief that it is so. I simply believe that you are a long way from seeing the Ireland that you & I both want to see. For me, the big difference is that we have different explanations for our disappointments.

I really don't see that a meeting of minds is likely any time soon but much as I enjoy a bit of baiting, particularly in non-rugby & I suppose non-coaching matters, I do genuine respect your desire for a real Golden Generation for both Ulster & Ireland.