Afoa Citing Confirmed

bangorboy · Post by **bangorboy** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:52 pm

OK so opinions here guys...

So if it transpires he misses the end of the season who do we use at TH?

Deccie Fitz back after injury no game time for months

Adam Macklin hasn't had much time either with a few sub appearances only

TC can do a job for us if pushed

Who do we use?

mikerob · Post by **mikerob** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:54 pm

ERC has received a Citing Complaint against the Ulster Rugby prop John Afoa (No 3), following the Heineken Cup quarter-final match against Munster Rugby on Sunday, 8 April 2012.
Afoa is alleged to have carried out a dangerous tackle on the Munster full-back Felix Jones (No 15) during the second half of the match at Thomond Park. The complaint was made by Citing Commissioner, Peter Larter (England).

Jean-Nöel Couraud (France) has been appointed as the independent Judicial Officer to hear the complaint, and the hearing will take place in Dublin on Thursday, 12 April 2012.

Law 10.4 (j) Lifting a player from the ground and either dropping or driving that player's head and/or upper body into the ground whilst the player's feet are off the ground.

Under the IRB Recommended Sanctions for Offences Committed within the Playing Enclosure, Law 10.4 (j) carries the following penalties: Low End: 3 weeks; Mid Range: 6 weeks; Top End: 10+ to 52 weeks.

NOTES TO EDITORS

i) Citing Commissioner
a) Citing Commissioners are appointed by ERC for all Heineken Cup and all televised Amlin Challenge Cup matches and shall be entitled to cite a Player for any act or acts of Foul Play that in the Citing Commissioner's opinion warranted a citing.
b) For such matches Clubs will not have the power to cite a player but may refer incidents to the Citing Commissioner within 24 hours of the conclusion of the match.
c) The Citing Commissioner will have 50 hours from the start of the game to make a citing. In exceptional circumstances this deadline can be extended.
d) The ERC Disciplinary Officer, Roger O'Connor, may forward the submitted Citing to a Citing Officer to determine whether there are sufficient grounds for the citing to progress.
e) The Disciplinary Officer will then bring a charge against the cited player.
ii) Disciplinary Hearing
a) Citing hearings will be heard by an independent Judicial Officer as soon as is practicable. Until the hearing a cited player is eligible to play in ERC tournaments.
b) The independent Judicial Officer is chosen by the Chairman of the independent Disciplinary Panel, Professor Lorne Crerar.
c) ERC's Disciplinary Officer, Roger O'Connor, presents the case against the player.
d) Both parties to the hearing (ERC and the player) have the right to appeal decisions of the independent Disciplinary Hearing. Appeals must be lodged within 3 business days of receiving the full written decision from the Chairman of the independent Disciplinary Committee.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/16480.php

Gael · Post by **Gael** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:00 pm

BaggyTrousers · Post by **BaggyTrousers** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:03 pm

bangorboy wrote: So if it transpires he misses the end of the season who do we use at TH?

He won't miss the season, maybe the semi, however in theory if fit I'd go with fat Deccie who has done a very good job in HC games before but only if he is able to get game-time first, otherwise I fear they will go for TC on the wrong side..

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:13 pm

Its a nonsense if that gets upheld as Jones was a contributing factor by trying to jump through the tackle to catch the ball. I don't care if it was the other way round and BJ had tackled Gilroy the same way my opinion would still be the same.

Post by **fermain** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:21 pm

3 weeks ban at lower end, so may be back in time for the final if we go through...

mikerob · Post by **mikerob** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:31 pm

I scanned the Disciplinary section of the ERC website and while each case needs to be judged individually, no one has got less than a 3 week ban for this offence (10.4(j))

They have actually got videos of the offences on the ERC website so you can watch them and compare.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/news/disciplinary_news.php

Process seems to be:
- If it hasn't been punished already, was it actually an offence? This means judging the evidence of what happened against what the laws and IRB guidelines say.
- If it is judged an offence, then where does it fit in the scale of punishment (low, mid, high)?
- Apply any aggravating and mitigating factors to increase or reduce the punishment

Rooster · Post by **Rooster** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:41 pm

Poite saw it and probably took the same view as me in that the reckless party in the incident was actually Jones as he jumped through a tackle to catch the ball, so what is Afoa supposed to do in that situation ? Turn away and let him regain the ball he was in the process of knocking on ?
Sometimes people put themselves into dangerous situations by their actions and a third party should not be held responsible for those actions, it will be a nonsense if he gets any ban at all, then again the ERC are not known for having a lot of sense when it comes to some of these situations

rave on · Post by **rave on** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:48 pm

) Lifting a player from the ground and either dropping or driving that player's head and/or upper body into the ground whilst the player's feet are off the ground.

it's not just lifting a player from the ground - it's the rest of the sentence that matters - 'either dropping or driving that player's head and/or upper body into the ground while that player's feet are off the ground' - Afoa did not 'drop or drive' felix jones's 'head/upper body into the ground'. he, and jones hit the deck. there was no dropping or driving. none.

Shem · Post by **Shem** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:53 pm

What minute was the tackle made? I can't find it...

TinPig · Post by **TinPig** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:54 pm

This was considered mid range and resulted in a 3 week ban for Schalk Brits of Saracens back in Nov 2011 and to me it looked a lot more dangerous than the Afoa tackle.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv? ... a&id=11166

stickinout · Post by **stickinout** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:00 pm

rave on wrote:) Lifting a player from the ground and either dropping or driving that player's head and/or upper body into the ground whilst the player's feet are off the ground.

it's not just lifting a player from the ground - it's the rest of the sentence that matters - 'either dropping or driving that player's head and/or upper body into the ground while that player's feet are off the ground' - Afoa did not 'drop or drive' felix jones's 'head/upper body into the ground'. he, and jones hit the deck. there was no dropping or driving. none.

Exactly my thoughts, though as i said before i thought it was reckless that he took jones's feet beyond the horizontal after that it's hard to stop a player going head first towards the ground. The player's bodyweight alone makes this a dangerous landing let alone any momentum Afoa's tackle makes. Compare Afoa's body position on hitting the ground and something like BOD's "tacklers" when he got the treatment on the Lions tour. Chalk and cheese i'd guess. Does Poite make any report to them? Or comment on why he didn't penalise?

mikerob · Post by **mikerob** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:00 pm

If you scan the reports of previous ERC disciplinary hearings they go into quite a lot of detail, so it isn't as if they just invent things.

I'd hope they would compare the evidence against the law and relevant regulations so the key points are:
- did Afoa lift him from the ground?
- did Jones' head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground?
- Jones certainly wasn't dropped, so was there any force involved bringing him to the ground?

If the defence can show one of those didn't happen, then it isn't an offence under the letter of the 10.4 j, so then it just comes down to a view if it was still a dangerous tackle but not a red card offence.

I'm recently back from jury service so am in full legal mode at the moment

TinPig · Post by **TinPig** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Will Skinner of Harlequins getting 2 weeks for action contrary to good sportsmanship (catching the ball in touch to prevent a quick lineout) given 70 seconds on the clock was entertaining. Any ban for Afoa if any would be hard to guess.
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv? ... a&id=11160

mikerob · Post by **mikerob** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:12 pm

TinPig wrote:This was considered mid range and resulted in a 3 week ban for Schalk Brits of Saracens back in Nov 2011 and to me it looked a lot more dangerous than the Afoa tackle.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/matchdaytv? ... a&id=11166

It certainly looks worse - reading the disciplinary report, the gist seems to be that Brits made the tackle and the players momentum took him over Brits' back, but Brits then stood up so the player was flipped. It was accepted as totally unintentional but still seen as reckless so the ban was 6 weeks for mid scale minus 3 weeks for mitigation resulting in 3 weeks.

The UAFC