ballpark wrote:Hi Ballpark
Congratulations to you and the other posters for a sensible debate. Nice You and other true Rugby fans don’t use it in that context but it does leave some of us a little uneasy to see it being used so much at Ravenhill. Like you I would love a revival of the red and white checked flag.
hi there fan, I don't think I've been oblivious to other's feelings on this issue in the context of the Northern Ireland flag it is probably being flown in the name of the athletes from here who are at the Commonwealth games at the moment though i haven't actually checked on the box as yet.
I actually disagree with you when you say that, "to see it being used so much at Ravenhill," presuming your talking about the NI flag. I think the NI flag is very little in evidence at Ravenhill given the size of the crowds we have, in fact I agree with C. Nick that Ravers is a rather drab place at match time compared to say Thomond Park with all those little Munster flags or Welford Road or Sale Sharks ground for example where they have an abundance of flags. Do agree though that the UR flags or those red and white checkered ones i talked about which where much in evidence at the Celtic Cup final as well, would be the way to go.
In rugby terms i personally think the average rugger fan is not the flag waving type.
Since we are all being frank, here’s what gets on my wick.
At Lansdowne the Tricolour is flown along side the Ulster Provincial flag. What is that all about? Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan have two flags? Don’t think so. It is a flat refusal of the powers that be in Dublin to recognise the existence of Northern Ireland as a political entity. It so obviously a cr@ppy attempt to be PC and it makes me feel very unwelcome in Lansdowne Road. I believe that anthems and flags should all be removed from Irish rugby as the team is unique in that it does not represent a country, but an island with two legitimate sovereign states. The IRFU flag was on the Twickers pitch before the match on Saturday. Was that a statement by the RFU saying that there is no single flag that represents the Ireland team? Or was it a pointer to the future. Get rid of the flags and the anthems and we will all be much happier.
again i go back to my point about lack of colour though - if you look at the scottish & italian fans the ground is awash with colour mostly from hand held flags been waved about like mad - i think this adds to the atmosphere (in a good way of course) - as opposed to Lansdowne where theres very rarely any green on show at all (it looks dull) - even RTE gave us out green plastic hats at the Wales game to try add a bit of colour & support.
i just feel that its a pity that theres not one flag that could be waved for Ireland games that would keep both sides happy & add a bit of colour & support for our team
as for anthems - i read somewhere that Flannery refuses to sing Irelands Call - why is this - i thought the whole point of it was that it would suit everyone & offend no-one
How beatiful it is do nothing, and then rest afterward - Spanish proverb
I remember a couple of years ago sitting beside a couple of Munster supporter during an interpro, it was their first visit to Ravenhill, both were wearing Munster jerseys, caps and scarves. We shared some great banter during he game, and afterwards I shook their hands and wished them both a safe journey home. They both had a brilliant time and reilly enjoyed the game and the crack.
As they were leaving they began to remove/cover up their Munster regalia obviously concerned about leaving the ground displaying "Irish" references.
It struck me at the time that even though Ravenhill makes everyone welcome when they get into the ground, for some its location in Belfast with its red, white and blue bunting and murals, can be quite intimitating.
You are right that flags and various symbols have been used in an "In yer face" context. But that includes the NI flag. It is a symbol that has been brandished on many unsavoury occasions and has been used as a symbol saying in effect "This is ours and you don’t count". You correctly identify the problem of alienation and over the years the NI flag has played its part. You and other true Rugby fans don’t use it in that context but it does leave some of us a little uneasy to see it being used so much at Ravenhill. Like you I would love a revival of the red and white checked flag
I take it you would also agree then that the displaying of the tricolour by some fans at Lansdowne might make others a little uneasy and is also a case of "This is ours and you don’t count".
I'll say again i personally have no problem with the display of these flags in a rugby context and if it's not PC then it's certainly over sensitivity.
Perhaps the problem lies not in the flag but with those who take offence.
it's a bit boring to agree all the time but...yes, I agree. As I said, my problem arises with the intent behind the use of a symbol/flag. If it is being used to exclude, then I think it is wrong. Sometimes we can use symbols/flags and unintentionally "exclude". On those occasions we need to cut each other a bit of slack, be mature and try to see both sides. I am delighted to say is more likely to happen in the Rugby world than any other area I have come accross.
Jackie..................i can understand why people bring these flags to these respective venues, but the NI. flag does not represent Ulster rugby and the Irish tricolour does not represent the Irish rugby team..........technically speaking.
I have noticed a greening (excuse the pun) of the support for the Irish team in the last few years.
Not just the Tricolour taken as the representative flag of a supposed all Ireland team but the proliferation of Tricolour Hats, shirts, inflatable thingies etc now available and carried by a sizable number of supporters. Also the "fields" seems to now have entirely replaced Molly Malone. (Not in itself a show stopper but the song has inescapable sectarian overtones esp in Glasgow).
I get the impression however that this is really a non-issue in the south as controversy with political symbols, anthems, colours, flags in workplaces and the like is not a problem.
Soldiers song is played in LR as a recognition of the presence of the President (or her representative) Irelands call is played as the "anthem" of the Ireland team. Of course we'll probably never see a full international played in Ravers/the maze in the presence of Lizzie or her representative to see if the GTSQ would be played before Ireland's Call here....
