Summer Tour

[Rooster]

Fez should not even be on the squad, his leg looked wrecked yesterday on the way home, play him now and he will probably miss most of the season with Ulster but Kidney does not give a brad pitt anyway

[Snipe Watson]

That helps explain the against the head in the build up to their second try.

[ColinM]

That helps explain the against the head in the build up to their second try.

Dont think so, that was Healy getting under Afoa and driving him up, Courts side of the scrum didnt move much.

[Snipe Watson]

That helps explain the against the head in the build up to their second try.

Dont think so, that was Healy getting under Afoa and driving him up, Courts side of the scrum didnt move much.

That's my theory shot full of holes...

[Neil F]

Are the days of a competitive Irish international side over? This is a bizarre question about I read through the, once more uninspired, squad selection and could find very few excluded alternatives who weren't already in there. There seem to be a few fringe arguments about players included / excluded but in reality, would either Gilroy or Zebo, for example, be meaningful inclusions in the next 6 Nations? I strongly doubt it. We're discussing who should be exposed to the squad, not who can actually improve Ireland on the field. The same, re: Wilkinson / McAllister; neither will, realistically, play a role in the upcoming 6 Nations. Perhaps they will in the future but let's see what happens in the Autumn, as well.

What is more worrying to me is that D'Arcy and O'Gara are, provincially, the best 12 and back up 10 we have, for example. O'Callaghan is still amongst the best four second-rows in Ireland. It's really difficult to see who could be brought into the squad who would actually offer more. I can see the future argument and the likes of Madigan / Keatley should be exposed to the tour but, certainly in the case of Keatley, he's being kept out of the Munster side by O'Gara. In three or four years, he might offer more to Ireland but he doesn't right now and he won't in the immediate future. Will those guys really learn much by being put out to be lambs to the slaughter in New Zealand?

We've been talking about the Irish team being in decline for the last five years; it has but it's now reaching a critical point. There are positions in which there is literally nothing beyond the bare bones; it is worrying that D'Arcy is still Ireland's best 12, for example - I don't think he'd start for any of the top tier sides, except maybe for Italy, right now. As I said elsewhere, I think the provinces' success is actually impacting, negatively, on the national side. The provinces have no incentive to look beyond guys who may be past their international sell-by date but who are still the best at provincial level and this is creating a kind of bottle neck of young talent that is being encouraged, perhaps too strongly, to remain in Ireland.

[Setanta]

NeilF, you've been thinking again! Rational, logical thought - IRFU - nah, its easier to blame the foreigners.

[Jackie Brown]

How about no more International Contracts for players over the age of 30?

[Setanta]

How's about building out our fourth province instead of stealing their best players as third choice bench warmers?

[bigchiefally]

Are the days of a competitive Irish international side over?

I dont think so.

There might not be depth in a few positions (TH prop, OH, IC) but our first choice team, is it that bad?

Front row, first choice is a solid unit. Limited amount of backup in the props is worrying, but the 2 Leinster hookers are decent backup to Best.

2nd row. Not bad at all. Tuohy, Ryan and POC are good players. Cullen is getting on but a decent enough stopgap. Toner has improved a huge amount in the last couple of years.

Back Row. I know people think the balance of the our backrow is poor but the quality of Ferris, O'Brien and Heaslip individually is very good. Decent backups around like Henry, O'Mahony, WIlson and McLaughlin. A few decent looking "kids" on the horizon too at most of the provinces. As for the lack of a "true" openside, who cares? How many teams play with one these days?

Scrum half - no real stars, but good depth of OK to decent players

OH - Sexton is top class. Beyond that we are in trouble. ROG past it, Madigan looks promising but wont play enough at Leinster. Jackson? Yet to be convinced he is going to be better than iHumph never mind for Ireland.

Centre - oodles of candidates for outside centre including the greatest Irish player I've ever seen (even if he is held together by gaffer tape and staples these days), Darcy and Wallace for IC causes concern. Downey coming back to Ireland with Munster will instantly get him into consideration.

Wing - Maybe not an abundance of talent, but not entirely empty. An out of form Trimble, injured Luke Fitz and Tommy Bowe, Earls, not a bad quartet to pick from. Throw in younger guys like Zebo, D Kearney and Gilroy who might make it and it isnt all bad news.

Fullback - Kearney is as good as anyone in the world right now. The drop off to the next player is a bit worrying. F Jones impressed me years ago, has been injured so much is hard to know what to make of him now.

So overall we arent exactly sparkling and we have terrible depth, but we should still be able to put out a competitive team against most opposition.

[fuzzylogic]

by Neil F » Tue May 22, 2012 9:35 am

Are the days of a competitive Irish international side over? This is a bizarre question about I read through the, once more uninspired, squad selection and could find very few excluded alternatives who weren't already in there. There seem to be a few fringe arguments about players included / excluded but in reality, would either Gilroy or Zebo, for example, be meaningful inclusions in the next 6 Nations? I strongly doubt it. We're discussing who should be exposed to the squad, not who can actually improve Ireland on the field. The same, re: Wilkinson / McAllister; neither will, realistically, play a role in the upcoming 6 Nations. Perhaps they will in the future but let's see what happens in the Autumn, as well.

What is more worrying to me is that D'Arcy and O'Gara are, provincially, the best 12 and back up 10 we have, for example. O'Callaghan is still amongst the best four second-rows in Ireland. It's really difficult to see who could be brought into the squad who would actually offer more. I can see the future argument and the likes of Madigan / Keatley should be exposed to the tour but, certainly in the case of Keatley, he's being kept out of the Munster side by O'Gara. In three or four years, he might offer more to Ireland but he doesn't right now and he won't in the immediate future. Will those guys really learn much by being put out to be lambs to the slaughter in New Zealand?

We've been talking about the Irish team being in decline for the last five years; it has but it's now reaching a critical point. There are positions in which there is literally nothing beyond the bare bones; it is worrying that D'Arcy is still Ireland's best 12

One key mistake made twice Neil.

Paddy Wallace is the best 12 in Ireland at the moment.

[scrum5]

How about replacing DK with Joe Schmidt, his brand of rugby is far superior.....

[jamsodonnell]

Declan Kidney's problem is immense in my opinion. He has seen the former quality of Munster, the fast lane growth of Ulster and the absolute magnificence of Leinster and I suppose a more competitive Connacht. The problem is that he is unable to create the atmosphere at International level to harness all these talents. I'm not entirely sure who could, maybe a Non Irish Coach eg Schmidt? (sp?) Also I believe that the players want to play more for their Provinces than they do for the National XV. Cant obviously prove that and wouldnt expect or want any player to admit to it, but it has been a lingering thought over the last few seasons. The IRFU pay the International wages and one would expect that the players would prioritise the National side as their pinnacle. Sure the vocal support at The Aviva is also Provincial. Despite being passionate about our Provinces, should there really be so many supporters at the Aviva wearing Provincial shirts ? And we are all equally guilty of that. I have felt that we are protective of our own Provincial players and critical of all others. Harness the respective qualities of the Provinces, instill a belief that the International product is bigger than the composite skills of the Provinces and get a buy-in to the Irish jersey. Will this take anything away from the Provinces...well maybe it might but if international rugby is to progress in Ireland then this situation must change.

[rumncoke]

Fuzzy the basis for your logic that Paddy is the best 12 is at best fuzzy and based on the wrong criteria .

And I don't expect you to agree with me but since my opinion agrees with that EoS and DK and they are national coaches I'll rest my case.

[ColinM]

How about no more International Contracts for players over the age of 30?

How about no more central contracts at all. All the players with one are under the IRFU control anyway

[fuzzylogic]

by rumncoke » Tue May 22, 2012 8:13 pm

And I don't expect you to agree with me but since my opinion agrees with that EoS and DK and they are national coaches I'll rest my case.

Yes, one wasted quite possibly the most talented Irish squad ever, the "golden generation"

The other just dragged them over the line and has gone rapidly down hill.


Hey, I guess just because they are in that position doesnt make them always right after all