calling all religious fanatics

[Snipe Watson]

Everyone needs an anchor of some kind or other and a sense of belonging.

My anchor is my wonderfully inter-denominational family going back decades and decades.

Genealogy is a wonderful pastime and it provides me with my sense of belonging, even if my ancestors hail from Munster

We're not equipped for people admitting to anything that heinous WW.......

[Wee Woman]

Everyone needs an anchor of some kind or other and a sense of belonging.

My anchor is my wonderfully inter-denominational family going back decades and decades.

Genealogy is a wonderful pastime and it provides me with my sense of belonging, even if my ancestors hail from Munster

We're not equipped for people admitting to anything that heinous WW.......

Just thought I'd throw that out there to you know, lighten the mood in this very serious thread

I did have to go back over 150 years to discover that wee nugget though so it doesn't really count eh?

[BaggyTrousers]

Thanks Baggy for those posts. Always good to cut through the ordure, but you don't cut through it by simply adding more.

I've no interest in philosophy but I do like to think a bit, purely recreationally You sound like a bundle of laughs.

btw trying to show me that Paris exists by telling me you've been there is what Christians call 'testimony'. Nice to see that you're adopting a religious approach to life. And if you say that I can go and visit Paris, that's a classical evangelistic technique, 'Come and share my experience.' To top it all, your rant in response to a decent discussion makes you a fundamentalist.

Welcome to the madhouse. At least the crack's good.

Chube Fundamentally of course.



You may stick your testimony, its a typical sadsack mentalist approach to us nonbelievers to attempt to ascribe your bullshite labels to us folk who know better.

Furthermore I was not "trying to show you anything" you clown, I am stating an irrefutable fact, if you want to play silly games that is your prerogative but leave me out, I can get all the bullshit I need without hearing it from you.

Incidentally, you are probably somewhat disappointed that I reduce matters to personal abuse, tough ould haun', I am well known for it. Normally however I am the soul of decency towards new posters but, hey, I'm happy to make an exception for you, I think you deserve it.

Didn't realise I came across like that. I apologise.

In which case I withdraw all insults, unlike your apparently vengeful invisible friend, I have no intention of persecuting either you or the next dose of generations of your family.

I am stroppy by nature & thought you were being somewhat eager to pin a theist's labels on my every word. No harm done however, I don't know you and as I say prefer not to attack the new-born posters so , in turn I apologise for my testy nature & insulting behaviour, I'm sure you are a hell of a guy.

[BaggyTrousers]

Have missed this thread almost completely. I'm not sure whether to be heartened by the genuine debate of theology, the role of religion in society and metaphysics, or pray ( ) all the harder for 22nd August to roll around until we get to the good stuff.

A few observations, some of which already discussed:

1. Lord of the Rings are a cracker set of books.


2. Dave, I would lean towards the view that when deciding 'does God exist?', the burden of proof lies on those who say yes.

I personally would, when asked, term myself an 'atheist'. This is because, from around the age of 18, I started thinking about that question. I started from the neutral premise of 'no God exists', then considered all the philosophical/logical arguments in favour of God (first cause, intelligent design, the other pertinent arguments - mainly Thomas Aquinas'), and found them wanting.

However - and this is a vital distinction - I am not 'categorically' atheist - I do not think it is possible for anyone to be. It is entirely possible that I'll die tomorrow and JC himself will be upstairs, waiting to blast me with a ray-gun as punishment for my lack of faith. What I am confident of, however, is that there is no single philosophical explanation, or combination thereof, that sufficiently backs up the claim that 'God' - an all-powerful, ever-present Creator - exists. If the argument is a logical one, I am 100% atheist. That 0.00000000000000000000000001% of doubt arises from the very fact that everyone on this board is mortal - if God exists, He (or She, or it) may well be an immortal, illogical being, by definition beyond the understanding of any of us.

This is a distinction, as Shan has alluded to, that many firebrand 'atheists' (Dawkins ) are unwilling to concede.



In any case, I'm philosophically happy to live my life day-to-day, enjoying my work, girlfriend and rugby, come what may when I land in the grave.

Yes the burden of proof is on the theist. Clearly there is no consensus on the definition of an atheist. For me it is a position declaring there is no God. There is no point asking a question like 'how do you know?' because you can't disprove there is an non-interventionist invisible deity somewhere in space and time (or outside of). I have rejected my belief in God. I say I am agnostic because I don't believe you can know. I'm basically too dumb to be an atheist.

I think the two of us agree on the definition of atheist.

I would call myself atheist if talking to someone who didn't have the theological/philosophical interest or knowledge to really argue the point. The more accurate answer, however, is your own - I am an agnostic. I am personally confident that there is no logical explanation for the existence of a monotheistic, all-powerful and ever-present 'God'* - that is not to say, however, that there is an illogical explanation that is quite simply beyond me, and/or everyone else. So yes, I'm "too dumb to be an atheist", but only to the same extent that every human is.



*For what it's worth, this sort of athe/agnosticism does not imply a big black hole where the heart should be. Spinoza has a model of pantheism which I find persuasive, which simply asserts that all existence is God ("God is Nature and Nature is God"). This God is not an agent of any sort, has no 'will' - in this view, something is not right or wrong, or good or bad - it simply is.

Baldy, you are clearly a good man, I have that sense from your posts, so I'm happy that you can accept this slight rebuff on behalf of all those dancing on the pinhead of philosophocal or close to it, arguments/rationals/whatbleedin'ever.

So, lookit ferfecksake, I started this thread about a wean being denied the child's right to wish. So many childer in his godawful world, that is killing itself in so many ways - at least the humans are - have bugger all squared, then some quack comes along and denies them even the possible comfort of "wishing" for something better. That's just evil he says

It was a simple question, now this. I should have known better, next thing some clown will go on about his favourite hymn & inevitably, as sure as eggs is eggs, some bugger will bring anfums, if not flegs and anfums.

Meanwhile the brains trust here are going round in ever decreasing circles debating on that feckin' pinhead, in severe danger of vanishing up their respective jacksies. I readily admit to being a Neanderthal in such matters, it bores the living shyte out of me, feckin pseuds waffling on about theoretical ballix.

Ach fu@k it I've had a long day, drove 500 kms and have had a few lotions, sure work away biys, yer doing no harm & only wasting yer own time. Feck this I'm off to me scratcher be the wall of me hovel. Good night sweet princes.

[rorybestsbigbaldnoggin]

Fair enough Baggy - you've shown commendable restraint after driving 500km


To bring it back to your original post (shock! horror! ), I'd agree, as I'm sure most on here would, that the use of religion in the way you have described is

a) Repugnant
b) Happening far too often.

[solidarity]

Thanks Baggy for those posts. Always good to cut through the ordure, but you don't cut through it by simply adding more.

I've no interest in philosophy but I do like to think a bit, purely recreationally You sound like a bundle of laughs.

btw trying to show me that Paris exists by telling me you've been there is what Christians call 'testimony'. Nice to see that you're adopting a religious approach to life. And if you say that I can go and visit Paris, that's a classical evangelistic technique, 'Come and share my experience.' To top it all, your rant in response to a decent discussion makes you a fundamentalist.

Welcome to the madhouse. At least the crack's good.

Chube Fundamentally of course.



You may stick your testimony, its a typical sadsack mentalist approach to us nonbelievers to attempt to ascribe your bullshite labels to us folk who know better.

Furthermore I was not "trying to show you anything" you clown, I am stating an irrefutable fact, if you want to play silly games that is your prerogative but leave me out, I can get all the bullshit I need without hearing it from you.

Incidentally, you are probably somewhat disappointed that I reduce matters to personal abuse, tough ould haun', I am well known for it. Normally however I am the soul of decency towards new posters but, hey, I'm happy to make an exception for you, I think you deserve it.

Didn't realise I came across like that. I apologise.

In which case I withdraw all insults, unlike your apparently vengeful invisible friend, I have no intention of persecuting either you or the next dose of generations of your family.

I am stroppy by nature & thought you were being somewhat eager to pin a theist's labels on my every word. No harm done however, I don't know you and as I say prefer not to attack the new-born posters so , in turn I apologise for my testy nature & insulting behaviour, I'm sure you are a hell of a guy.

Thanks, Baggy.

btw while we'll disagree about other things,I think your original post is spot on. Scaring kids is obnoxious.

[solidarity]

I'm not sure though, that the default position of most people is theism, real theism. Is the evidence not that most people are either atheist or agnostic. Most churches aren't exactly bulging at the doors and a quick look round surely says that most people are, in practice, atheist or agnostic. Can you really believe in God and not respond to that in some meaningful way by listening to what purports to be his words and ordering your life accordingly? Certainly a fair number in NI will articulate some sort of cultural attachment to Christianity but does it really mean anything to most folk? Maybe a couple of generations ago there was a sort of Christian feel to many aspects of life but I don't think Church attendance ever topped 50%, at least for Prods, and today, I think we're a pretty secular bunch.

Not what was being put forward. You are talking about pratice and I am talking about the stating point influenced by societal norm. I think 44% claimed no religion in the last UK census but nobody asked about belief. Even if it was a gauge it is wildly inaccurate anyway because we already know that some theists will select the NO Religion box and some atheists will nominate a religion they feel culturally bound to...or indeed will select for darker reasons. Church attendance is no gauge of whether people think of themselves as atheists,not to mention the starting point for anybody in relation to their atheism, or theists for that matter. Religion has connections to supreme beings and the belief in them but that is all. Theism is a far wider matter than simple roll calls or membership cards of the different religions. Dave called it correctly earlier when he said that many folk when explaining their atheism will reference either God or one of the religions. They can't help it as that is their starting point.

Secularism also has nothing to do with this subject. One can be a theist and a secularist. Indeed I'd argue one has a civic and social responsibility and duty to be a secularist if one is a theist, unless one is supportive of restricting the rights of their fellow citizens.

You mention true theism. True theism is the belief in a supreme being or beings. It has nothing to do with most of what you mention in your post.

Fair point, simple roll calls are not all they're cracked up to be. I was thinking that belief and practice were more closely linked. Does belief in a supreme being not result in some sort of action that is more or less consistent with what the believer understands the supreme being to be?

What do you make of religious people who are not theists? I'm not sure myself.

Solidarity - out of curiosity, what would a non-theist religious person look like?

See my above post on Spinoza and pantheism - am I one of those yokes? I essentially consider myself a Spinozist existentialist: that is to say, my view is 'I don't think there is a God, but sure we'll never "know" in this lifetime, so let's have a bit of fun while we're here.'

I've never understood existentialism, never mind the Spizozist sort, so I haven't a clue about whether it's religious.
If a religion can be defined as any philosophy that has an associated ritual and ethic, what about these four:
Buddhism is often seen as religion without God as are some other eastern religions. Shinto appears to be basically the Japanese national cult.
There are 'New Agers' who certainly talk about being spiritual but not religious. I wonder if at least some of them mean spiritual and religious but not theist. Because it's a pick and mix thing, it's hard to tell.
There are also 'Religious Atheists.' Have a look at http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismques ... ligion.htm
I don't now much about them but recently the 'Sunday Assembly' http://sundayassembly.com/ has had a few gigs including some in Belfast. They like some things about religion but not the God bits. They're sometimes called Atheist church.

[big mervyn]

Spiritualism, superstition and any other definitions of "non theistic religions" are just as big a loiad of ballix as the god bothering varieties far as I'm concerned.

I have an otherwise rational and intelligent friend who believes that you can heal ailments with crystals. Bonkers, although I suppose, not any more bonkers than any of the other made up stuff.

[rorybestsbigbaldnoggin]

Yeah, spiritualism (thus defined) is a load of cack.

Seeing it become trendy in all sorts of ways, however - some scientific and pseudo-scientific practices like yoga, pilates, acupuncture, feng shui are all bought into in a serious way because of some notion of the purity of ancient practices.

Modern medievalism, is what it is!

[BaggyTrousers]

Spiritualism, superstition and any other definitions of "non theistic religions" are just as big a loiad of ballix as the god bothering varieties far as I'm concerned.

I have an otherwise rational and intelligent friend who believes that you can heal ailments with crystals. Bonkers, although I suppose, not any more bonkers than any of the other made up stuff.

Ever been to Sedona AZ. Merv. Absolutely beautiful place but full of the greatest bunch of trippy nutjobs this side of Israel. That said I reckon the vast majority are simply well-intentioned stoners who have experienced far too much psychedelia for one mind to survive.

All that notwithstanding, I'd go back tomorrow, they also have some sensational brew pubs. Did I mention its beautiful?

B0000826.JPG (131.79 KiB) Viewed 525 times

Acch, the ould trousers weren't too baggy.

[Shan]

OK Shan I have to ask, you have regularly referred to me as "horse" now Snipe is "horse", do you keep a stable of us or what's the feckin' craic ya gowlbeg?

Arra Baggy tis just a Limerickism. I call people Horse, Pal, Cuz, Brother. Tis nicer I think than just saying a chara or my friend all the time. I even use Langball as a term of endearment. I'll say it sometimes in work "well langball, cad é an scéal?" Though if conversing with one of Dub friends I'd often just say "well head, story?" Same thing ultimately.

And of course bag sniffer is a nice one. People don't like it when I call them that in public though for some reason....

I come on here and am exposed to some Ulsterisms. I'm just, in my usual friendly way, repaying the debt.

We used to have a Chinese lad working with us and I'd often say to him, Ah De Chuang Óg, how's your bag these days? Ha the fecker was terrified at the start and didn't know what to say but he quickly got into the hang of it. Now when I learned how to ask him that in Chinese he was impressed.

[Shan]

What do you make of religious people who are not theists? I'm not sure myself.

Even though you are being deliberately provocative* here the actual answer would depend on what definition of religious you have in mind in the context of this question.

For example there are many folks over the years who have been members of religions, even some in a position of some authority who are there only for their own selfish ends. They couldn't care less if there is a supreme being or not. Their own being is all that is important.


* Be advised I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt as there is a better set of words I could have used.

[Dave]

OK Shan I have to ask, you have regularly referred to me as "horse" now Snipe is "horse", do you keep a stable of us or what's the feckin' craic ya gowlbeg?

Arra Baggy tis just a Limerickism. I call people Horse, Pal, Cuz, Brother. Tis nicer I think than just saying a chara or my friend all the time. I even use Langball as a term of endearment. I'll say it sometimes in work "well langball, cad é an scéal?" Though if conversing with one of Dub friends I'd often just say "well head, story?" Same thing ultimately.

And of course bag sniffer is a nice one. People don't like it when I call them that in public though for some reason....

I come on here and am exposed to some Ulsterisms. I'm just, in my usual friendly way, repaying the debt.

We used to have a Chinese lad working with us and I'd often say to him, Ah De Chuang Óg, how's your bag these days? Ha the fecker was terrified at the start and didn't know what to say but he quickly got into the hang of it. Now when I learned how to ask him that in Chinese he was impressed.

Horse is well used around the province. Mostly in Donegal in my experience. The nearer you get to Belfast it's mate this, mate that. Everybody is mating.

[Shan]

Genealogy is a wonderful pastime and it provides me with my sense of belonging, even if my ancestors hail from Munster

Ahhh that explains it. I always knew there was something more to you than most of the reprobates on here WW.

[Shan]

In which case I withdraw all insults, unlike your apparently vengeful invisible friend, I have no intention of persecuting either you or the next dose of generations of your family.

I am stroppy by nature & thought you were being somewhat eager to pin a theist's labels on my every word. No harm done however, I don't know you and as I say prefer not to attack the new-born posters so , in turn I apologise for my testy nature & insulting behaviour, I'm sure you are a hell of a guy.

Praise the Almighty. He sure is working in a mysterious way today.