Why have our clubs performed so poorly in the Champions Cup?
We are all but out of the Champions cup, Munster are just hanging on by their fingernails and Leinster with a tough away game against Wasps have got it all to do to reach the Quarter final stage.
There is now a real possibility that no Irish team will reach the ERCC quarter finals what is the reason for this?
Is it inadequate coaching? Poor signings after loss of major NIQ players? Or, is it caused in some way by Irish International success?
Just asking like
PS This question is already out there on MF courtesy of Cougar Moon.
An overall lack of quality in player above all else.
The players replacing injured or moved on players currently are not of the standard to compete with the European elite.
Eg how many of the Leinster or Munster sides from the first games would have got on their HEC winning sides?
Ulsters problems are well documented on this forum.
Our set up lacks the class that we had assumed was in place and to be built upon and we are seemingly now back to square one.
It's mostly down to money.
The top 4 French teams are on a different planet and the English aren't too far behind.
Pro 12 are just making up the numbers. I'd be fearful for the future.
Fanbase here in Leinster is very disgruntled with a lot of the ephemeral fair weather crowd in the departure lounge.
The IRFU need to realise that this will impact the national team sooner than later.
We can`t get the calibre signings like Howlett, Elsom or Thorn any more as they head to France and we have lost Sexton from these shores which massively impacted on Leinster.
I don`t agree that English sides are that much better but I do think the legendary Leinster and Munster hec winning sides would be top dogs today even ahead of Toulon, so I dont think its a case of us being left behind as much as we have fallen behind.
The national team in contrast is perhaps benefiting from a greater depth of squad, playing regular top level rugby due to the restictions the NIQ rule imposed.
It means we are not in a position going into a world cup where we have one player per a position as per 2007 when ROG was the only Irish 10 available and regularly playing for his club.
It helps having a decent coach too.
Last edited by bazzaj on Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dublin4 wrote:It's mostly down to money.
The top 4 French teams are on a different planet and the English aren't too far behind.
Pro 12 are just making up the numbers. I'd be fearful for the future.
Fanbase here in Leinster is very disgruntled with a lot of the ephemeral fair weather crowd in the departure lounge.
The IRFU need to realise that this will impact the national team sooner than later.
Agreed on the French, but some of the English are up to their eyeballs in debt. The IRFU prioritise balancing the books and turning a profit. I think we are the best example. Strong income streams and limited overheads. Where is the money?
Snipe Watson wrote: The IRFU prioritise balancing the books and turning a profit. I think we are the best example. Strong income streams and limited overheads.
You sure about that?
I didn't think that any of the provinces were net contributors to the IRFU.
I thought the national side subsidised everything else.
The strong financial footing is on the back of record crowds brought in by on-going success. If Ulster don't re-invest some of the extra spodulicks gained, they will lose the fickle crowds and the revenue stream will diminish.
Fair enough, OAK.
Well done on the financial front, better than we're doing anyway!
If it's true that player power did for Anscombe then that could be about the biggest problem ye have.
Not sure what you're talking about Russ (as usual). Ye've bought in as many foreign imports as anyone else I'd say.
pythagoras wrote:Fair enough, OAK.
Well done on the financial front, better than we're doing anyway!
If it's true that player power did for Anscombe then that could be about the biggest problem ye have.
Not sure what you're talking about Russ (as usual). Ye've bought in as many foreign imports as anyone else I'd say.
Consider
Leinster being on a solid financial footing, so being allowed 7 niqs.
Munter, who can't afford the water charges, can only have 2
Snipe Watson wrote: The IRFU prioritise balancing the books and turning a profit. I think we are the best example. Strong income streams and limited overheads.
You sure about that?
I didn't think that any of the provinces were net contributors to the IRFU.
I thought the national side subsidised everything else.
You are both correct in your own way. The IRFU "fund" the Provinces but the Provinces have their own income streams.
The point Snipe was correctly making is that Ulster are well through repaying the loan for the premium stand and have been in profit for at least the last 3 (?) years. They are currently on a very firm financial footing.
Correct, plus the stadium and stand sponsorship deals have added a decent wedge to the pot and our attendances are amazingly holding up despite the decline in the quality on offer.
pythagoras wrote:Fair enough, OAK.
Well done on the financial front, better than we're doing anyway!
If it's true that player power did for Anscombe then that could be about the biggest problem ye have.
Not sure what you're talking about Russ (as usual). Ye've bought in as many foreign imports as anyone else I'd say.
Consider
Leinster being on a solid financial footing, so being allowed 7 niqs.
Munter, who can't afford the water charges, can only have 2
Carnage
Easy one Russ. We'd just do what we did in the noughties, provide the bulk of the irish side.
I'm not certain we have performed that poorly comapred to what our expectations should have been. Leinster probably have as they have the easiest group and one which if they were at full strength you'd expect them to top with ease. Both Ulster and Munster have one of the top 2 club sides anywhere in their groups. Sure Ulster lost to Scarlets which isn't good but I think they may have already sub-consciously accepted the situation before that game.
Now all that being said, strength in depth is our major issue I think. We could all probably cobble together the bones of a competitive 15 or maybe even 23 if we had no injuries, though I still think we'd have our work cut out to down the two superteams. We need to develop our player pool through the academies and I still think, as I've said for years, the provinces should not consider themselves as mini-nations and should instead be engaging in player swapping where it makes sense. The IRFU need to be taking a leading role here. They have no issue dictating selection policy, they should have no issue dictating where best to deploy the talent across the island. That and we need to ensure we have the best possible coaching systems in place.
The more money that flows into France especially the harder it will be to compete. Time for the IRFU to have an effective review with input from all the stakeholders in Irish Rugby. I suspect that one learning which would / should come out of that is our policy in relation to NIQ's. The standard in that space currently is dreadful. Only Pienaar could be considered international standard and we really need every one of them to be. The IRFU have dollars. It would be in everyone's interest to ensure those dollars are being spent on a double strategy of boosting our own academies and locking in on top class NIQ talent....while ensuring that talent meets with our actual needs rather than bringing in guys in positions we are already well catered for.
It is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways.
