Leinster VS Ulster HC QF 01/04/23

[StandUp]

I'm sure its been covered already, and they probably would've scored eventually anyway, but how bad was McCann's "tackle" on Baird before his try?

Guy must be having nightmares about that. Its like he had planned to put in a shot then at the last minute he realised he had Baird at 20/1 on Paddy Power for the first try scorer so waved him through.

Just watching the match now. That was a ridiculous brain fart by McCann. Needs a good boot in the balls for that.

[paddybrown]

I thought the Leinster academy was really adding value etc (maybe still the case) however there has been mentionings on podcasts etc of elite level coaching etc in private schools paid for “in house” (not Leinster or Irfu, as anyone would think). Add in potential rugby scholarships etc. This is clearly a big springboard pre academy….I assume not replicated in ulster? Now multiple that by the additional number of private schools etc in Dublin area - means quality and numerical advantage.

UR need to find private sector money: rather than a high profile saffer signing, spend it on elite coaching for schools/clubs or academy, truly non biased talent identification from all communities and sporting background. Build a tight bond with private schools, maybe provide school bursaries to the best prospects from non traditional routes. LA Rochelle are partially financed by 500 local companies- we need that kind of buy in.

The schools setup in Ulster is at least trying to catch up.

My nephew played for the firsts at Sullivan, a middling rugby school at best, until last year, and the level of coaching was light years ahead of where it was when I was there (my year produced David Erskine, that'll give you some idea how long ago we're talking). My brother reckons it's semi-professional standard. For a while they had Willie Anderson coaching them, and made the Schools Cup final. They got Harry Sheridan, George Saunderson and Conor McKee into the Ulster academy recently, and Harry's already playing for the senior team. But there's only so far good coaching can take you if the raw material's not there. My nephew's year had a really good Medallion team, but none of them really got any bigger. A few of them have gone into club rugby, but none of them are professional prospects.

I'm told Campbell have started a programme where they scour the world for talented kids, take them on as boarders, and by the time they leave school they'll be Irish qualified and into the Ulster pathway.

[thecrouch]

I thought the Leinster academy was really adding value etc (maybe still the case) however there has been mentionings on podcasts etc of elite level coaching etc in private schools paid for “in house” (not Leinster or Irfu, as anyone would think). Add in potential rugby scholarships etc. This is clearly a big springboard pre academy….I assume not replicated in ulster? Now multiple that by the additional number of private schools etc in Dublin area - means quality and numerical advantage.

UR need to find private sector money: rather than a high profile saffer signing, spend it on elite coaching for schools/clubs or academy, truly non biased talent identification from all communities and sporting background. Build a tight bond with private schools, maybe provide school bursaries to the best prospects from non traditional routes. LA Rochelle are partially financed by 500 local companies- we need that kind of buy in.

The schools setup in Ulster is at least trying to catch up.

My nephew played for the firsts at Sullivan, a middling rugby school at best, until last year, and the level of coaching was light years ahead of where it was when I was there (my year produced David Erskine, that'll give you some idea how long ago we're talking). My brother reckons it's semi-professional standard. For a while they had Willie Anderson coaching them, and made the Schools Cup final. They got Harry Sheridan, George Saunderson and Conor McKee into the Ulster academy recently, and Harry's already playing for the senior team. But there's only so far good coaching can take you if the raw material's not there. My nephew's year had a really good Medallion team, but none of them really got any bigger. A few of them have gone into club rugby, but none of them are professional prospects.

I'm told Campbell have started a programme where they scour the world for talented kids, take them on as boarders, and by the time they leave school they'll be Irish qualified and into the Ulster pathway.

Young lads from Leinster are not genetically bigger than young lads from Ulster, so I don't agree with the premise that it's just bad luck, driven by a lack of raw materials.

Obviously Leinster schools are able to bulk their players up, chances are it's down to money and the availability of resources to put the time into bulking lads up.

[paddybrown]

There's no amount of weight training can make you taller if you don't have the genes for it. My nephew's year didn't have the raw material to produce any pros. But the previous crop put three into to the academy and one of those into the senior team, from not a particularly big school, that's only ever produced three pros before that. There's luck involved there.

The semi-pro setups at the big Leinster schools have been in place longer and seem to be operating at peak efficiency. If Sullivan is typical of Ulster schools, they're trying to catch up, but nowhere near Leinster levels yet. And none of the northern schools are fully private, so they may never have the kind of resources to put into it that the likes of Blackrock can.

[Tap+Go]

Ulster schools will never be able to compete. We don’t have the money the Dublin private schools do to throw at rugby programmes.

Very hard for an Ulster kid to compete given that to go pro you effectively need to be Ireland U18/19 standard around 17/18 years of age. Those teams are getting swamped with kids from all the big Leinster private schools given they have been operating at a semi pro level for years.

Unless you have it genetics wise with speed, strength, size to set you apart from a Leinster school boy you are done before you get going. You can’t just be the same as Ireland will default to pick the boy from Blackrock or St Michael’s because they know the programme they are from rather than an Ulster lad who maybe has potentially a higher ceiling but isn’t there yet. That Ulster kid, who wants to play for Ulster, then fades back and you are left with your pickings down the line from the few who make it or the Leinster rejects.

You will get the odd year where you have a more Ulster talent come through based on those attributes to set them apart eg next years U20 could feature a lot from Ulster given size, strength, speed (Boyd, Ward, McKillop, Mcfarlane, Kenny etc) but this year you really only had McNabney who again fits the outlier in terms of size/speed. Telfer who I understand to be have always been very highly rated in Ulster couldn’t get a start.

It’s a cycle which I just don’t see how you break - it’ll only get more Leinster dominated given the money in those private schools.

[promenader 2]

One of the problems faced by UR is that, because of our segregated education system and historic divisions, half the schools in NI don't play rugby. Straight off the bat, they're fishing in a half-full pond. (I could've said half-empty, but I'm optimistic by nature ) I know nothing about how UR goes about its business, but are they making a serious attempt to address this? I noticed recently that the GAA was putting on a gaelic games taster session in East Belfast. Is UR doing the same sort of work in the Catholic primary school sector?

[HammerTime]

With the success of the Ireland team, This is the time to be doing the likes of taster sessions in schools/nights at clubs in non traditional areas.

[solidarity]

Simple exercise to see if it is the schools or academy which make leinster great. Don't allow any leinster schools player to join the leinster academy for a few years but instead let the other 3 bid for them. Leinster can have their pick from the other 3 provinces. Surely they could have no arguments picking from 3 provinces instead of one? Could they?

I thought the Leinster academy was really adding value etc (maybe still the case) however there has been mentionings on podcasts etc of elite level coaching etc in private schools paid for “in house” (not Leinster or Irfu, as anyone would think). Add in potential rugby scholarships etc. This is clearly a big springboard pre academy….I assume not replicated in ulster? Now multiple that by the additional number of private schools etc in Dublin area - means quality and numerical advantage.

UR need to find private sector money: rather than a high profile saffer signing, spend it on elite coaching for schools/clubs or academy, truly non biased talent identification from all communities and sporting background. Build a tight bond with private schools, maybe provide school bursaries to the best prospects from non traditional routes. LA Rochelle are partially financed by 500 local companies- we need that kind of buy in.

There is big bucks flowing into the Leinster private schools.

The lads in the top schools down here are basically professional, they are treated like pros in everything from their training to their meals to their gym sessions. The only difference is they have to go to lessons during the day.

They are finishing school ready to play pro rugby for Leinster in the URC because the culture and environment of professional training is not alien to them, it's just a continuation of what they've already been doing for years.

All this, without the IRFU or the Leinster branch having to spend a cent.

We will never compete with this, we just don't have the demographics.

How does this relate to what I hear regularly about lads coming through a couple of school here who, when they leave school are so fed up with the pressure put on them because of their rugby that they aren't interested in a possible professional career?

[Tap+Go]

Is it not more that they aren’t interested in continuing to play rugby for a club etc. Doubt it applies to those who have the potential to go pro.

[thecrouch]

Is it not more that they aren’t interested in continuing to play rugby for a club etc. Doubt it applies to those who have the potential to go pro.

Yes, this is my understanding. Lads who don't make it can be lost to the system completely after they leave school as they aren't being encouraged back into club rugby or club rugby isn't seen as a viable pathway to an Ulster career.

That said, Ulster's academy selection process is patchy at best, so it wouldn't be surprising if some potential pros have been lost to us because of awful decisions at that stage.

[big mervyn]

Is it not more that they aren’t interested in continuing to play rugby for a club etc. Doubt it applies to those who have the potential to go pro.

Yes, this is my understanding. Lads who don't make it can be lost to the system completely after they leave school as they aren't being encouraged back into club rugby or club rugby isn't seen as a viable pathway to an Ulster career.

That said, Ulster's academy selection process is patchy at best, so it wouldn't be surprising if some potential pros have been lost to us because of awful decisions at that stage.

I know of a couple who passed up on the Academy to pursue a more rigorous academic path.

[shamalicious]

Efforts definitely are being made with "less traditional rugby schools" being involved in Bowls, Plates, Trophies etc, but these take time, coaching and investment. There is the club Academy programme which aims to encourage players who have left school to play club rugby against teams of a similar age (18-21) to ease the transition into senior rugby and reduce the number of players being lost entirely after school.

The likes of Shea O'Brien, Adam McBurney, Ben Moxham etc are the small few who have taken the road less traveled, but then you look at the Academy which has Joe Hopes (Donaghadee RFC and Regent House but then moved to CCB), Rory Telfer (Coleraine GS), James McNabney (Cambridge House), Lorcan McLoughlin (IQ), this suggests the talent ID net is being cast more widely. Ethan Graham (Monaghan), Mark Lee (Rainey OB), and James McKillop (Foyle College) are also coming through at Age-grade.

[colind]

When my son was playing school 1st XV rugby about 12 years ago they regularly had fixtures against the 'big' Dublin and Cork schools.

I remember chatting to some of the opposition school parents who advised that if a boy was part of the Senior Cup squad (i.e. 1st XV) he was expected to board at the school due to the requirements of training (both gym work and pitch)

I can't expect that that has changed much in the intervening period.

[HammerTime]

Only just sobered up and I'm working my way slowly through this game having a good look multiple times at every penalty conceded. Luke Pearce was INCREDIBLY hard on us imo. Some of those penalties against could/should have been Ulster penalties. And these are penalties that soon led to trys. Said it before and will say again Leinster are not only the best team but are thee best cheaters in the game. McCanns attempt at a tackle on Baird was criminal. He didn't want to know. Should be sent back to Banbridge to see out the season. McLoskey was dire. 2 pens and 2 knock ons in the first 24 mins is Incredibly poor for his standard. His rampaging runs are a rare sight these days. Doak and burns are the most boring/uninventive halfback combination in world rugby. Treadwell too lightweight. Big name signings who were brought in for the business end of the season were AWOL. Lowry isn't a 15, but isn't a 10 ... so what's the point of him? Can't catch, can't kick (zero distance) and runs into brick walls every time these days and concedes penalties in doing so. Baloucoune lazy and along with Lowry can't catch a ball. Only shining light was Stockdale. Maybe Sheridan.

[pip14]

I said it on Page 6 of this thread..Moore should have started 15, KOTH thought otherwise…

As much as I like Lowry he is a liability at FB. Teams target him and more often than not he gets beaten to high balls or runs into brick walls

In hindsight back 3 of Mcilroy, Balacoune, Stockdale is the better option