Any word on the Academy?

[Lurgan Lad]

We should have one of the best youth systems about by now considering we have had a decade now with a free stadium which is a big money generator compared to before. And unlike others who only rent/are in big debt. Instead, we've blown the loot on expensive journeymen and still have gotten nowhere.

The significance of the Academy in Leinster is the same as Ulsters. It’s about what happens before.

Consider the substantial investments pouring into the Dublin schools, albeit not from Leinster itself.

The Dublin schools boast well-compensated coaches who attract top-tier coaching talent. A striking contrast arises when comparing the earnings of Belfast’s 1st XV coaches to Dublin’s U13 coaches. While one earns significantly below the minimum wage, the other enjoys a generous income.

This dichotomy extends to the realm of extracurricular teachers in Ulster, where their numbers are dwindling. This is only going to get worse.


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Yes I'm talking about schools as well why aren't UR heavily involved in programs/coaching/guidance and of course dishing out a few bob/grants? Schools seem to be left to their own devices.

Pathway coaches do go into schools but approach seems to be more they take just a few sessions with main aim to identify any potential talented players not in the pathway. They then will invite them to a relevant session – whether the regional development sessions or provincial sessions they run weekly.

Hence to KOTH’s point why so many kids seem to be involved in an Ulster training session. Means they hit multiple players and schools/clubs through a few centralised sessions from a small number of coaches.

While will be of benefit particularly to kids from clubs or smaller schools maybe not getting top quality coaching it no way addresses the gap to a kid in a bigger Belfast school never mind the mini academies in the Dublin private schools. Will always get a few gems coming through but will never be in big numbers. Would take significant investment in quality coaches at a greater number of clubs/schools to start to address the gap. I often wonder why some of the bigger clubs in Ulster don’t have their senior coaches coaching at the youth level or going into the local school. Should be a number of decent coaches but they seem to concentrate on the senior level and parents are taking the youths – seems too late to me and if they invested more of their coaching time in the youth it could start to reap benefits down the line but likely down to short term nature of the coaches & extra money they’d want.

Following on from the above:

-Ulster's relationship with Queens where the academy players are placed there, is there anything over and above that e.g. financial support or influence on who the coach is, that kind of thing?
-Say Ulster decided to partner up with a school, and it subsidised PE teachers salaries, coached them up, invested in the facilities that they were of the standard of one of the fee paying schools in Dublin, how much would that cost? I know it would cause a lot of ructions with other schools, and the Schools cup you would have to question how it would operate, but how much are we talking about?

[rumncoke]

To be "placed' in Queens " they must go to Queens which is a University and not a college -- financial assistance would be given to the student rather than the University .

Largan lad some of facilities at the Grammar schools in the Ulster are the equal of those in Leinster but the ethos that sport is a professional option would be missing therefore schools would not invest in coaches on the basis that their major purpose is to educate the majority of pupils rather than cater to a sporting minority --and school funding is not unlimited -- thus schools are relying on voluntary coaches who vary greatly in approach and ability .

the second consideration is the nature of the pupils at grammar schools -- which is based on academic selection rather than sporting -- one might ask why the word Grammar is present because the unfortunate truth is secondary schools and pupils generally are substantially less interested in sport -- the schools can frequently have a major problem with attendance never mind participation .

Then the question why not the Branch fund the coaches within the schools -- questions --How many schools -- which schools ?
discrimination -- -- old boy net work etc to many possible accusations could be made --

The fact is in Dublin there is basically only major rugby school which dominates --Blackrock compare the record of winners of the leinster schools cup to the record of the Ulster schools cup in Ulster 4-5 schools dominate --in Leinster it is one with a various also rans .

This dominance of course runs into the Leinster squad providing a common ethos to the squad.

[kingofthehill]

To be "placed' in Queens " they must go to Queens which is a University and not a college -- financial assistance would be given to the student rather than the University .

Largan lad some of facilities at the Grammar schools in the Ulster are the equal of those in Leinster but the ethos that sport is a professional option would be missing therefore schools would not invest in coaches on the basis that their major purpose is to educate the majority of pupils rather than cater to a sporting minority --and school funding is not unlimited -- thus schools are relying on voluntary coaches who vary greatly in approach and ability .

the second consideration is the nature of the pupils at grammar schools -- which is based on academic selection rather than sporting -- one might ask why the word Grammar is present because the unfortunate truth is secondary schools and pupils generally are substantially less interested in sport -- the schools can frequently have a major problem with attendance never mind participation .

Then the question why not the Branch fund the coaches within the schools -- questions --How many schools -- which schools ?
discrimination -- -- old boy net work etc to many possible accusations could be made --

The fact is in Dublin there is basically only major rugby school which dominates --Blackrock compare the record of winners of the leinster schools cup to the record of the Ulster schools cup in Ulster 4-5 schools dominate --in Leinster it is one with a various also rans .

This dominance of course runs into the Leinster squad providing a common ethos to the squad.

Over the past decade in Leinster schools rugby, the spotlight isn't solely on Blackrock. A noteworthy shift has occurred in the rugby landscape, with schools like St. Michaels, who have seen significant improvements in their rugby program over the last two decades, marking a stark transformation from relative obscurity. Notably, Belvo, Conglowes, Roscrea (credited with instigating changes in the Leinster schools system), Newbridge, Terneure and Gonzaga have also entered the fray, with the latter making substantial investments in their rugby program over the past seven years and reaping the rewards. Interestingly, none of these schools house the highest-paid Director of Rugby (apparently belongs to Castleknock, for those curious).

What fuels this transformation year after year in Leinster is the infusion of substantial financial resources, including generous coaching and teaching salaries. When coupled with the demographic advantages of Dublin and its abundant player base, it's evident that the cream of the crop consistently competes against each other on a weekly basis. This proximity has obviated the need for Dublin schools to embark on arduous journeys to Cork or Belfast, solidifying their dominance in the field.

When contrasted with the Ulster schools, where teams often face opponents with older players and a scarcity of competitive schools beyond the trio in Belfast, the divide widens further. This discrepancy becomes even more pronounced when considering the absence of financial incentives. In Ulster, newly qualified teachers are generally disinclined to dedicate their Saturdays to essentially unpaid commitments. The gap will continue to grow.

Are we reaching a point where students are being asked to cover the costs of extracurricular activities within schools? I'm uncertain if that's the ideal solution.


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[DogsMutts]

Queens is an open club, infact quite a few of the academy lads who have been sent to Queens are not studying.
Dublin schools have far better resource available.
We are talking French top14 rugby v Welsh rugby.
Schools now have more women teaching and also have teachers who are teaching, sports coaching is not part of their skill set nor ambition. So schools have babysitters and not coaches.
Clubs can drive an improvement too. I’m nterestimg point made elsewhere that 1st xv coaches should, as part of employment, drive the youth process too. That makes sense.

[solidarity]

I think Sullivan Upper went through a golden period when Willie Anderson was there coaching. If my memory is correct, here's a piece of evidence that spending a bit of money on a good coach is well worth it.

Is there not an argument for grammar schools in NI to have a sports stream, with both a fee paying element and scholarships, or is there some sort of legal reason not to do this?

Ashfield have some sort of football 'academy' thing going. No chance of a rugby equivalent?

Rockport school has a golf academy that, I assume, pays for itself.

What about a few schools working together (with the local club?): North Down schools; Ballymena schools: Lisburn and district schools etc.

If an eejit like me can think these thoughts, surely, surely Ulster Rugby can get their act together

[kingofthehill]

I think Sullivan Upper went through a golden period when Willie Anderson was there coaching. If my memory is correct, here's a piece of evidence that spending a bit of money on a good coach is well worth it.

Is there not an argument for grammar schools in NI to have a sports stream, with both a fee paying element and scholarships, or is there some sort of legal reason not to do this?

Ashfield have some sort of football 'academy' thing going. No chance of a rugby equivalent?

Rockport school has a golf academy that, I assume, pays for itself.

What about a few schools working together (with the local club?): North Down schools; Ballymena schools: Lisburn and district schools etc.

If an eejit like me can think these thoughts, surely, surely Ulster Rugby can get their act together

Calling it a "golden period" might be a bit of an exaggeration . They branded themselves with the nickname "Sully Sharks" and even dubbed their pitch the "Shark Tank," but it's worth noting that they didn't win anything.

I have a suspicion that Wallace High School charges for extracurricular activities, though I'm open to being corrected or receiving more accurate information.


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[solidarity]

I think Sullivan Upper went through a golden period when Willie Anderson was there coaching. If my memory is correct, here's a piece of evidence that spending a bit of money on a good coach is well worth it.

Is there not an argument for grammar schools in NI to have a sports stream, with both a fee paying element and scholarships, or is there some sort of legal reason not to do this?

Ashfield have some sort of football 'academy' thing going. No chance of a rugby equivalent?

Rockport school has a golf academy that, I assume, pays for itself.

What about a few schools working together (with the local club?): North Down schools; Ballymena schools: Lisburn and district schools etc.

If an eejit like me can think these thoughts, surely, surely Ulster Rugby can get their act together

Calling it a "golden period" might be a bit of an exaggeration . They branded themselves with the nickname "Sully Sharks" and even dubbed their pitch the "Shark Tank," but it's worth noting that they didn't win anything.

I have a suspicion that Wallace High School charges for extracurricular activities, though I'm open to being corrected or receiving more accurate information.


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It's all relevant, King. Sullivan were always second division, but in those few years they could hold their own with most teams and did make it to, I think, their only schools cup final.

[SOU]

Look back at Sopers time at Ballyclare HS, similar to Willy at Sullivan.

Proofs there, give the kids quality coaches and they will make bigger improvements.

I enjoy Bernard Jackmans punditry, I’m pretty sure he’s the Director of rugby at Pres Bray, a minnow in the current Leinster schools system, that says a lot!

Some sort of subsidy from UR so certain clubs or schools is probably the only way to improve the overall standard!

[nonplussed]

I think Sullivan Upper went through a golden period when Willie Anderson was there coaching. If my memory is correct, here's a piece of evidence that spending a bit of money on a good coach is well worth it.

Is there not an argument for grammar schools in NI to have a sports stream, with both a fee paying element and scholarships, or is there some sort of legal reason not to do this?

Ashfield have some sort of football 'academy' thing going. No chance of a rugby equivalent?

Rockport school has a golf academy that, I assume, pays for itself.

What about a few schools working together (with the local club?): North Down schools; Ballymena schools: Lisburn and district schools etc.

If an eejit like me can think these thoughts, surely, surely Ulster Rugby can get their act together

Calling it a "golden period" might be a bit of an exaggeration . They branded themselves with the nickname "Sully Sharks" and even dubbed their pitch the "Shark Tank," but it's worth noting that they didn't win anything.

I have a suspicion that Wallace High School charges for extracurricular activities, though I'm open to being corrected or receiving more accurate information.


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It doesnt always work either, Regent House hired Budge Pountney as DoR and things seemed to worsen rather than get better. I do think coaching at this level is king. there are some excellent coaches in the regional schools, who actually coach at a high level in teh club game, but without the support of other teachers with the requisite skills, they are left pissing in the wind.

As Ive mentioned before I have 1 son at a Belfast school and 1 at a regional. The regionals head coach and their Meds could easily make a difference at a bigger school, and no doubt have aspirations to do so, but those surrounding him are not as committed, skilled or interested making life very difficult for those that are.

[ljsulster]

There is actually some fairly reputable coaches at the regional schools as said above:

Ballymena Academy- John Nicholl (Ballymena RFC)
Dromore High- Rob Logan (Banbridge RFC)
Coleraine Grammar- Ashley Blair (Ex Ulster)
Dalriada- Bryan Young (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy Coach)
Rainey Endowed- Willie Anderson (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy coach)
Royal Armagh- Jonny Gillespie (Dungannon RFC, Ex Ulster academy coach)

Do Antrim still have Paul Marshall on the books?

[kingofthehill]

There is actually some fairly reputable coaches at the regional schools as said above:

Ballymena Academy- John Nicholl (Ballymena RFC)
Dromore High- Rob Logan (Banbridge RFC)
Coleraine Grammar- Ashley Blair (Ex Ulster)
Dalriada- Bryan Young (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy Coach)
Rainey Endowed- Willie Anderson (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy coach)
Royal Armagh- Jonny Gillespie (Dungannon RFC, Ex Ulster academy coach)

Do Antrim still have Paul Marshall on the books?

Sullivan - Adam Craig
Larne - Nick Stirling

I understand that Paul Marshall has taken a sabbatical.

There's no denying the presence of talented coaches and Directors of Rugby (DOR) in the 1st XV game. However, what about the development of rugby in Year 8, Year 9, Year 10, and the Medallion teams? While it's acknowledged that 1st XV coaches provide support, they are only available for two out of three days. To truly nurture younger talent, we require non PE teachers with a reasonable knowledge of rugby, and it needs to be incentivised.

I'm uncertain how this situation can change unless staff members are compensated adequately. With schools facing financial constraints and increasing demands from parents, it appears to be a daunting challenge.


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[HammerTime]

Teachers are teachers at the end of the day and aren’t any different from the rest of the public sector. Most Will do as little as as they can get away with yet moan that they’re hard done by. Expecting any decent results from anything Civil servant led is always going to be hit and miss.

[kingofthehill]

Teachers are teachers at the end of the day and aren’t any different from the rest of the public sector. Most Will do as little as as they can get away with yet moan that they’re hard done by. Expecting any decent results from anything Civil servant led is pot luck.

Hence why rugby and other sports are dying a slow death.


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[Big-al]

There is actually some fairly reputable coaches at the regional schools as said above:

Ballymena Academy- John Nicholl (Ballymena RFC)
Dromore High- Rob Logan (Banbridge RFC)
Coleraine Grammar- Ashley Blair (Ex Ulster)
Dalriada- Bryan Young (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy Coach)
Rainey Endowed- Willie Anderson (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy coach)
Royal Armagh- Jonny Gillespie (Dungannon RFC, Ex Ulster academy coach)

Do Antrim still have Paul Marshall on the books?

Sullivan - Adam Craig
Larne - Nick Stirling

I understand that Paul Marshall has taken a sabbatical.

There's no denying the presence of talented coaches and Directors of Rugby (DOR) in the 1st XV game. However, what about the development of rugby in Year 8, Year 9, Year 10, and the Medallion teams? While it's acknowledged that 1st XV coaches provide support, they are only available for two out of three days. To truly nurture younger talent, we require non PE teachers with a reasonable knowledge of rugby, and it needs to be incentivised.

I'm uncertain how this situation can change unless staff members are compensated adequately. With schools facing financial constraints and increasing demands from parents, it appears to be a daunting challenge.


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I know from reading interviews online that Ryan Baird and Luke McGrath are heavily involved with young fellas (I’m assuming 1st-3rd year) at St michaels.

[kingofthehill]

There is actually some fairly reputable coaches at the regional schools as said above:

Ballymena Academy- John Nicholl (Ballymena RFC)
Dromore High- Rob Logan (Banbridge RFC)
Coleraine Grammar- Ashley Blair (Ex Ulster)
Dalriada- Bryan Young (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy Coach)
Rainey Endowed- Willie Anderson (Ex Ulster, Ireland and Ulster academy coach)
Royal Armagh- Jonny Gillespie (Dungannon RFC, Ex Ulster academy coach)

Do Antrim still have Paul Marshall on the books?

Sullivan - Adam Craig
Larne - Nick Stirling

I understand that Paul Marshall has taken a sabbatical.

There's no denying the presence of talented coaches and Directors of Rugby (DOR) in the 1st XV game. However, what about the development of rugby in Year 8, Year 9, Year 10, and the Medallion teams? While it's acknowledged that 1st XV coaches provide support, they are only available for two out of three days. To truly nurture younger talent, we require non PE teachers with a reasonable knowledge of rugby, and it needs to be incentivised.

I'm uncertain how this situation can change unless staff members are compensated adequately. With schools facing financial constraints and increasing demands from parents, it appears to be a daunting challenge.


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I know from reading interviews online that Ryan Baird and Luke McGrath are heavily involved with young fellas (I’m assuming 1st-3rd year) at St michaels.

The St Michaels PR drive. If they are there more than 3 times in the year I would be surprised.


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