Dan’s Not the Man.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Not sure how anyone can pin so many individual errors on the coaching staff.

The players need to take a very hard look at themselves after that.

There’s no jeopardy for them until the rules are changed and they are at genuine risk of being replaced by more non IQs.

Did they make it back to Todd’s before closing time?

You're right, you can't Justin, but the culture starts with what the coaching team permit or the culture they develop.
I will say I believe there has been a culture of mediocrity and toxicity for years, going back to McCall where some players seem to rule the squad and negatively influence decision making. Would this happen under Cullen/ Niebaber or Rowntree? Doubt it- but both clubs gave been quicker to lance boils- Leinster especially. Players want to play under a culture of excellence or are proud to excel for their province even if limited.
Unfortunately, like football, it's easier removing a coach-I agree with you- I'd happily remove any toxic players, but I do think DF and his team are ultimately accountable.
Be interesting to see how same players,ayers react under a new coach?
Some can be dropped- Hume and Mccloskey for Marshall and Moore ( another played inexplicably not selected in squads). What's the value of exiling Marcus and Issy if there are senior players the issue? Flat track bullying

Toxic is an overused word these days and one I tend to avoid unless it’s clearly applicable. And I don’t believe it is.

To be clear, I would argue that our players mostly fall into three categories:-

a) Those that aren’t good enough;
b) Those that are but are too comfortable and/or are lacking in the top two inches and
c) Those that have carried us for the last 5-10, most if not all being genuinely international standard players, whose best years are now behind them

It’s not a good mix.

Avoid toxic if you like but its applicable to many situations, including current UR, and certainly over the last 2 decades - rumours have constantly abounded as they have in the past and have had a semblance of truth. Wilson/ Best era McCall etc Constant rumblings about management styles, players exiled to AIL- justified who knows?

But your 1-3 doesn't cover all plausible scenarios:

Whilst 1-3 you've listed are indeed applicable you've also left out poorly coached and developed - consider some of these players were in the Irish squad a few years ago eg Lowry, RB. They've fallen off a cliff.
We have a small of tranche of forwards coming through who seem to be at the same crossroads RB Hume and Lowry were two years ago. Are you confident DF and his team will develop that potential? Not all will make it to international level but there is surely enough exploitable talent.

Not sure what your ultimate solution is? Stay as we are? Even UR as a business smells of mediocrity - it can't even read a weather forecast. Yet no-one sanctioned. You rot from the head down. For any coach with similar assets not to be competitive or regressive in his 5/6 year tenure is no longer tenable.

Chemical/ Comical Ali is doing a great job for UR PR- nothing to see here- all is well...

You simply can't convincingly argue that it is all or mostly on the player side. As you say CIman, some players are regressing in terms of form. Also you would have to say that there wasn't anything Dan could have done to get a better performance from the players. If it's just individual errors then you could argue that Dan is the victim here. It isn't. There are major systemic issues, particularly in defence. The players seem to have no idea where they are supposed to stand. Really basic organisation is lacking. They couldn't even defend the blindside from a lineout in the opposition half!!!

Dan came here with the idea of implementing this 'fight for every inch' mantra. This has failed. This squad over the last 6 seasons has demonstrated the capacity to the completely capitulate time and time and time and time again....

Dan has failed to implement his own strategy. In fact he is reinforcing the opposite. We are crumbled from the first whistle on Saturday. The best performance of the season (Leinster) and the squad come out and thank Dan Soper. The issues in the squad have been well publicised. You many refuse to believe them. Since they have been confirmed by the resident ITK on here. The guy who can tell us who we are signing well in advance of any announcement. I for one can't discount the presence of these internal issues.

If it's all the players, we should sack them and find new ones. Or we could do what happens in every other professional sport and hold the head coach accountable for performances on the pitch.

Very fair comment Dave. I do agree with Justin's 3 points but like you believe there are many other conflating factors that amount to a whole hill of pain for us. But no one's hurting more than the players. How will they show their faces on the Lisburn road?

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Completely outclassed at every level. Timoney, the Leinster man, the only bright spot. Apparently we have talent coming through… the whole system is wrecked. We have had the policy of trying to turn athletes into rugby players, that horse is flogged to death. This all starts at schools/youth level.

Ah well then. No point in blaming DMcF et al then?

Players are broken before they even get them.



FYI, that horse above is flogged to death. Is that you, 15?

[Silverstu]

Has to be down to the coaching, they should be drilled enough to be confident in making plays and recovering well from mistakes. Is it the full coaching team though? McFarland had us playing some great rugby and getting great results for the first few years. Then Payne left and we haven't been the same since, not just in defence. Payne had the players hungry in defence and I've read that defence is the basis for everything going forward, strong defence gives the confidence and freedom to attack. Could also be that how Payne worked alongside the others collectively got the best out of the players.
Either way the team should be greater than the sum of its parts, its distinctly less so something has to change.
I don't buy the toxic player thing- there are always going to be players who don't get on with certain coaches, they will always bitch. Its about wether the coaches can get the best out of the rest of the players, thats not happening at the moment.
I'd at least ditch Bell/put him on tea making duty and get Faloon in.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Has to be down to the coaching, they should be drilled enough to be confident in making plays and recovering well from mistakes. Is it the full coaching team though? McFarland had us playing some great rugby and getting great results for the first few years. Then Payne left and we haven't been the same since, not just in defence. Payne had the players hungry in defence and I've read that defence is the basis for everything going forward, strong defence gives the confidence and freedom to attack. Could also be that how Payne worked alongside the others collectively got the best out of the players.
Either way the team should be greater than the sum of its parts, its distinctly less so something has to change.
I don't buy the toxic player thing- there are always going to be players who don't get on with certain coaches, they will always bitch. Its about wether the coaches can get the best out of the rest of the players, thats not happening at the moment.
I'd at least ditch Bell/put him on tea making duty and get Faloon in.

Stu, the toxic player issue was a factor in McCalls time, and indeed Cowboys; if they' re senior enough... toxicity can be undermining for either personal position or because they have no faith in and/or the coach/ coaches/ tactics..., including maximising their value/ talent as a player. Look how many players gave said they improved significantly under JS and latterly Farrell. The reverse is also true imo.

[Dharper]

Purely re coaching, and it Goes far deeper than that!

Basic Skills have regressed, attack poor, and even more so defence has been nothing short of disgraceful. Worryingly set piece/breakdown is currently in bits.

The coaching tkt frankly is way out of their league. Contracting has been poor…..is this Dans preferred coaching team, really, or what he’s been given? Why are we contracting guys on different timescales? They should all finish at the same time. Any new coach will want his own team, and rightly so. A coaching tkt remedy is not straight forward.

Did Dan really say I want bell as my d coach?….or did Bryn say we can get him? A 3yr contract length was ridiculous. There just doesn’t seem to be an overall thought out strategy. Out of that coaching tkt, who can challenge Dan?

I think he may come to realise a number of errors….no coach should be staying 5+yrs. no coach should stay anfter applying for another coaching job (Leicester?), he needs his own team including someone who will challenge him.

The real issues go deeper and higher though.

Who extended dans contract beyond 5, who okayed the possible Leicester job application rumour if true, the rest of the coaching tkt is callow in performance and quality. Whoever/whatever allowed that should be out the door, or the decision making ability taken away.

The regression of some players has been Really bad, not stalling, regression….a damning indictment.

It’s a total shitshow, it’ll need Irfu backing to come in and clear out, and int recruitment of coaching tkt. with money tight why would the Irfu invest further to remedy mistakes, when returns on investment are likely to be better at Leinster?

[Big-al]

Cunningham is the man behind it.

[shamalicious]

Cunningham is the man behind it.

I can't help but feel his hands are tied too though.

It seems we haven't got a pot to pi$$ in, added to the fact that we're a basket case to outsiders, plus the IRFU restrictions around player management (albeit with fewer and fewer players this applies to) and restrictions on NIQ recruitment, there are hardly too many quality coaches banging down our door these days.

[Dharper]

Cunningham is the man behind it.

Then Bryn has had his day. If we can’t get basic recruitment/retention right of our coaching, then it’s ever bit as damaging as poor player recruitment and recontracting. There’s enough people out there with rugby experience and contract law quals to say maybe time for a change in direction.

Genuinely if players can’t kick on/develop, then there shouldn’t be future contracts. Too much acceptance of mediocrity from top to toe. Who is accountable and accepting of it? Why would anyone pour money into an organisation like that?

Unfortunately I wouldn’t trust anyone from Ulster to turn it around-jobs for the boys, and a lack of ruthlessness in a small pond.

[solidarity]

Reading Ian Henderson's comments here, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68043647, he's sounding really frustrated.

[Dharper]

I’d happily take a saffer style character led coaching tkt: I’d doubt they’d be an issue around basic d, set piece and breakdown. I’d also imagine there would be a direct honesty around poor standards.
The aim would be simple: a raise in standards, and young player development. No mediocre recontracting, young players will be backed over this at every occasion. Mediocrity poisons an environment.
Some of the money saved should be going to rugby development officers, and non traditional rugby pathways development.
I’ll happily take a 5/7yr journey but it starts with a clear plan, and a preparedness to upset the status quo, and saying goodbye to people. “Development” and “Accountability” would be key going forward.
The ulster board should come down on any rugby organisation that in any way disrupts this plan in Ulster….whether that a favoured club or school. Province above everything.

[Horse15]

Completely outclassed at every level. Timoney, the Leinster man, the only bright spot. Apparently we have talent coming through… the whole system is wrecked. We have had the policy of trying to turn athletes into rugby players, that horse is flogged to death. This all starts at schools/youth level.

Ah well then. No point in blaming DMcF et al then?

Players are broken before they even get them.



FYI, that horse above is flogged to death. Is that you, 15?

[Big-al]

Cunningham is the man behind it.

I can't help but feel his hands are tied too though.

It seems we haven't got a pot to pi$$ in, added to the fact that we're a basket case to outsiders, plus the IRFU restrictions around player management (albeit with fewer and fewer players this applies to) and restrictions on NIQ recruitment, there are hardly too many quality coaches banging down our door these days.

It’s all entirely off his own making. Recruiting coaches and players should be seen as an investment. Ulster have struggled financially because they had too big of a squad with many of them borderline useless as professionals.

A coach should improve players, Ulster should be in a financially strong position given that the stadium was paid for them, we have a history many clubs/provinces could only dream off and we have a loyal supporter base with a good catchment area and based in a city and country/province which is economically in decent shape.

It’s like the chicken and the egg. A good coach should have that Ulster squad in knockout games and at least competitive vs the top sides which in turn should bring in more £££ and sponsors.

Signing dross like James French and Greg McGRath is only a massive waste of money. There has been too many similar signings over the past several years.

Also - Does anyone know if Ulster get a percentage of the Montpellier gate receipts?

[thecrouch]

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/ ... 33021.html

Soper was put up for the presser.
I'm not sure I agree with his sentiment - how many of those players would tog out for ulster for no pay? The fans spend their own hard earned money following ulster, buying season tickets etc and the evidence isn't there that the players care as much (cooney the exception). A bit more self reflection and a few less soundbites required. I wonder if Dan will comment on the training last week? Was it up to standard? If so then what happened on the pitch on Saturday. We need some journalists to start asking the hard questions; there is too cosy a relationship there also.

I am honestly so sick to death of hearing that our players are hurting after yet another defeat. Given how often they balls it up, and given how often we hear that they are hurting, is the only conclusion here that Ulster is a team full of masochists?

We'll own it. We'll work on it. We can improve. It's all so predictable these days. We'll win some random league match and they'll think they are good again.

A bunch of absolute losers with zero winning mentality and zero pride.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Cunningham is the man behind it.

I can't help but feel his hands are tied too though.

It seems we haven't got a pot to pi$$ in, added to the fact that we're a basket case to outsiders, plus the IRFU restrictions around player management (albeit with fewer and fewer players this applies to) and restrictions on NIQ recruitment, there are hardly too many quality coaches banging down our door these days.

It’s all entirely off his own making. Recruiting coaches and players should be seen as an investment. Ulster have struggled financially because they had too big of a squad with many of them borderline useless as professionals.

A coach should improve players, Ulster should be in a financially strong position given that the stadium was paid for them, we have a history many clubs/provinces could only dream off and we have a loyal supporter base with a good catchment area and based in a city and country/province which is economically in decent shape.

It’s like the chicken and the egg. A good coach should have that Ulster squad in knockout games and at least competitive vs the top sides which in turn should bring in more £££ and sponsors.

Signing dross like James French and Greg McGRath is only a massive waste of money. There has been too many similar signings over the past several years.

Also - Does anyone know if Ulster get a percentage of the Montpellier gate receipts?

I must say I agree Al. French and McGrath- what a waste. Who missed Wilson? That says it all to me...look at our contract extensions and that also tells a tale. And who negotiates or decides who's staying and going? We could've kept JTA for French and McGrath salaries; a guy who loved playing here, big dressing room presence and shored us up for most of the season.
Cunningham needs to go with DF- We're talking root and branch excision of rot and accept a hard couple of seasons. They won't as they're scared of falling ST revenue, but we'll end up with tinkering around the edges and end up in the same place. And ST revenue will fall anyway. I hope Davy's first project is us and not replacing Sexton.

[thecrouch]

Cunningham is the man behind it.

I can't help but feel his hands are tied too though.

It seems we haven't got a pot to pi$$ in, added to the fact that we're a basket case to outsiders, plus the IRFU restrictions around player management (albeit with fewer and fewer players this applies to) and restrictions on NIQ recruitment, there are hardly too many quality coaches banging down our door these days.

It’s all entirely off his own making. Recruiting coaches and players should be seen as an investment. Ulster have struggled financially because they had too big of a squad with many of them borderline useless as professionals.

A coach should improve players, Ulster should be in a financially strong position given that the stadium was paid for them, we have a history many clubs/provinces could only dream off and we have a loyal supporter base with a good catchment area and based in a city and country/province which is economically in decent shape.

It’s like the chicken and the egg. A good coach should have that Ulster squad in knockout games and at least competitive vs the top sides which in turn should bring in more £££ and sponsors.

Signing dross like James French and Greg McGRath is only a massive waste of money. There has been too many similar signings over the past several years.

Also - Does anyone know if Ulster get a percentage of the Montpellier gate receipts?

I must say I agree Al. French and McGrath- what a waste. Who missed Wilson? That says it all to me...look at our contract extensions and that also tells a tale. And who negotiates or decides who's staying and going? We could've kept JTA for French and McGrath salaries; a guy who loved playing here, big dressing room presence and shored us up for most of the season.
Cunningham needs to go with DF- We're talking root and branch excision of rot and accept a hard couple of seasons. They won't as they're scared of falling ST revenue, but we'll end up with tinkering around the edges and end up in the same place. And ST revenue will fall anyway. I hope Davy's first project is us and not replacing Sexton.

The Wilson situation would be hilarious if it wasn't a tragic microcosm of the overall culture at Ulster. We sign two plodders from the AIL and when we are forced to play one of our own young lads it turns out he's actually quite good and looks to have serious potential.

The coaches and Bryn I would hope were absolutely mortified when Wilson murdered that Munster scrum on his debut.

Harry Sheridan, the first young Ulster forward in years to show proper grit and desire disappears off the face of the earth for weeks on end after putting in good performances, while we have to watch Matty Rea, who no harm to him has a much lower ceiling, beggars belief. I guarantee that if Sheridan was coming through at Leinster or Munster he'd be playing URC week in, week out at the very least.

My pi$h is well and truly boiled at this point.