Referendum

[Cap'n Grumpy]

sincere apologies Snipe you are correct.

Don't encourage him. Shoulda stopped after the first two words, or even just used the second as a stand-alone!

[Snipe Watson]

sincere apologies Snipe you are correct.

Don't encourage him. Shoulda stopped after the first two words, or even just used the second as a stand-alone!

Get stuffed you. You're not funny, the man asked a question and I shall answer it.

Ignore him Bart, my view is that it doesn't get much more major than Brexit, but that may not be the PM's view. pardon the pun.

[Bart S]

sincere apologies Snipe you are correct.

Don't encourage him. Shoulda stopped after the first two words, or even just used the second as a stand-alone!

Get stuffed you. You're not funny, the man asked a question and I shall answer it.

Ignore him Bart, my view is that it doesn't get much more major than Brexit, but that may not be the PM's view. pardon the pun.

Fair enough

Whilst i absolutely think Brexit opens up this debate again on scotland i do hope that any future referndums we have where the proposed change is so fundamental and largely "irreversible" at least in the short term, that we put a higher buffer in than 50.000000001% of people who vote. Think Rooster suggested 50% of eligible voters which seems sensible or something like 60% plus of those who vote.

[Rooster]

sincere apologies Snipe you are correct.

Don't encourage him. Shoulda stopped after the first two words, or even just used the second as a stand-alone!

Get stuffed you. You're not funny, the man asked a question and I shall answer it.

Ignore him Bart, my view is that it doesn't get much more major than Brexit, but that may not be the PM's view. pardon the pun.

Fair enough

Whilst i absolutely think Brexit opens up this debate again on scotland i do hope that any future referndums we have where the proposed change is so fundamental and largely "irreversible" at least in the short term, that we put a higher buffer in than 50.000000001% of people who vote. Think Rooster suggested 50% of eligible voters which seems sensible or something like 60% plus of those who vote.

50% of eligible voters should be the target for any major referendum, stops the Buck eejits and fanatics from making far reaching decisions about the future of the country

[justinr73]

The horse has bolted but yes.

Interesting to hear my mum say that she didn't think that she should have been able to vote cos she's 70 plus (which I disagree with) and that she knows that most of her peer group voted on what amounted to purely racist grounds.

[big mervyn]

The horse has bolted but yes.

Interesting to hear my mum say that she didn't think that she should have been able to vote cos she's 70 plus (which I disagree with) and that she knows that most of her peer group voted on what amounted to purely racist grounds.

Aye. A lot of people dreaming of cycling to evensong with not a nig-nog in sight

I know not everybody who voted leave was racist and/or stupid, but the more I've seen on TV makes me think that they certainly are the exception.

Interestingly, I haven't met anyone face to face yet who has admitted to voting Leave.

[mikerob]

My area in London voted 75% to remain but a neighbour spoke to an elderly lady on my street who admitted voting leave.

She didn't like those maroon UK passports with the soft covers and wanted to go back to those large blue passports with the stiff covers.

[Neil F]

The horse has bolted but yes.

Interesting to hear my mum say that she didn't think that she should have been able to vote cos she's 70 plus (which I disagree with) and that she knows that most of her peer group voted on what amounted to purely racist grounds.

The (apparently) controversial opinion I have on this is that votes should be discounted by how long a person can reasonably expect to live with their choice, benchmarked at 1 for 16/18 year olds and monotonically diminishing in age.

This is not because I think older people are less capable of rational thought than younger people - or because I think that many people of a certain age are out of step with modern social trends. The latter is their right, as it's my right to believe whatever the hell I want but rationality is going to change fundamentally as one ages.

People of my age live in a world where we will be burdened by funding our parents' generation's pensions, for example. Yet people of that generation keep voting for themselves, for their triple locks and free bus passes. And they keep not having enough children for the principles on which this generosity was founded to carry on. I live in a country where there is a net transfer of government funds from younger to older people, despite older people having had a lifetime to accumulate their wealth and - in every social stratum - being on average significantly better off than people of my age. Politicians keep selling this crap. Older people keep buying it. With such targeted marketing, I can see why the turnout at older ages is so high...

Fundamentally, I appreciate that this is rational for those people. I do not mean this to stink of ageism. I have no belief that older people are less capable than younger ones, or any less deserving. At the same time, rationality at older age is going to fundamentally different than at younger ages, not least because older people don't have to live with such decisions in the long-term. The weight of a vote should reflect that, especially when it's a vote on something nearly impossible to reverse.

[mikerob]

People of my age live in a world where we will be burdened by funding our parents' generation's pensions, for example. Yet people of that generation keep voting for themselves, for their triple locks and free bus passes.

Blame needs to be attached to politicians who hand out the bribes in the first place... In London, for example, there is free transport for 60+ residents but at that age, about 85% of people are still working AND they are on average wealthier than younger age groups,

All the transport pass does is subsidise commuting to work for people who can afford it anyway but woe betide the politician who tries to increase the age limit.

The person who introduced it in the first place? Some bloke called Boris Johnson.

[Neil F]

Mike, I'm with you entirely on that assertion. I'm long past the point of believing that young people are simply apathetic about voting. Older people are incentivised to turn out by a set of policies tailored to get them to do so. The same things are entirely lacking for young people. What sensible young person would bother voting for a selection of political parties all promising to make education more expensive, for example? Politicians make sales pitches to older people in a way they don't do to younger people. Those politicians should share in the blame. At the same time, I find it hard to sympathise with those who keep voting for themselves with either no concept or no concern of the costs it imposes elsewhere.

Of course, even if young people are as feckless and apathetic as they're often made out to be, it doesn't excuse the poor, short-term, policy making that has blighted this land since the late-70s.

[Snipe Watson]

Young people are apathetic because they are fed a diet of how corrupt all politicians are. Negative reporting, negative campaigning, spin, sound bites, expenses scandals and so on.
Is it any wonder they don't care? I think feckless is a bit harsh. Were any of us discerning at 18-20? I wasn't.

[Bart S]

I voted to Remain and think the rules set out for the referendum were wrong given what was at stake (ie simple 50% plus one of voters), but 2 points i don't agree with :-

1) older people should not have a vote or their vote should be diminished. They have as much right to have a say in our fitire as young people. I heard a young guy complaining about Brexit at work the other day and he didn't even vote. Hard for me to have sympathy with him.

Also, we didn't hear many complaints about this in elections before. The only time i heard it was from some scottish independence supporters and i disagree with them about it as i do on here now.

2) we should re-run the referendum because of 'lies' or people wanting to change their mind, or 4m people signing a petition. Again, i disgaree withtthe rules set at the outset but playing strictly by the rules the result was for a Leave.

What i do think however is that as Labour candidate Owen Smith said, there is a case for a referendum when the final Brexit deal is negotiated given that we don't yet know what Brexit looks like and whether it is what people thought they had voted for.

[big mervyn]

What i do think however is that as Labour candidate Owen Smith said, there is a case for a referendum when the final Brexit deal is negotiated given that we don't yet know what Brexit looks like and whether it is what people thought they had voted for.

In view of the timescales involved, the Torys may try to get a mandate for the final proposals by calling a general election. Of course, that is no sort of a mandate, as even with a landslide victory, they are unlikely to get more than 40% of the vote (probably only 25% of those eligible to vote).

[BaggyTrousers]

The horse has bolted but yes.

Interesting to hear my mum say that she didn't think that she should have been able to vote cos she's 70 plus (which I disagree with) and that she knows that most of her peer group voted on what amounted to purely racist grounds.

I'd go further than your mum, I'd bring in compulsory euthanasia at 70. It would mean I'd only have to suffer a further seven years and a few months of my miserable existence and the chances of me voting stupidly would be considerably diminished.

Mind you I'd need to have a bit of a pay off and for me a few months licensed to kill would have put the referendum result to bed with no damage done given the sudden deaths of many prominent BRexiteers.

[BaggyTrousers]

Young people are apathetic because they are fed a diet of how corrupt all politicians are. Negative reporting, negative campaigning, spin, sound bites, expenses scandals and so on.
Is it any wonder they don't care? I think feckless is a bit harsh. Were any of us discerning at 18-20? I wasn't.

Still aren't as it happens.