Positives and Negatives: Ulster V Dragons

[Snipe Watson]

watching Ulster right now is reminding me of the Chiefs!

not seeing it Russ

[ruckover]

A few more weeks training and we could be formidable, like the Crusaders, Blues of old or the Chiefs - watching Ulster right now is reminding me of the Chiefs!

Steady on there Russ, you're getting a little bit ahead of yourself! I agree at the moment we're playing good rugby, but Rome wasn't built in a day - good teams need probably a season (or even two) to fully gel and become world class. Only a team full of world beaters could come together and conquer Europe in their first season.

I agree that there is the potential here for us to be unbelievable. And I hope this happens. But I think it'll be at best next season by the time we're realistically challenging for both. This year it'll be one or the other.

[Dave]

by Dave » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:30 pm

The word immense, to me really just means great, or maybe slightly better than great. Not as good as fantastic or excellent. You say no one was immense, not Trimble, Nick Williams or Henry. Especially Henry who busted his balls all game?

'Immense' - immeasurable, boundless, extremely large in scale or degree. Thats the definition of immense.No it can also mean 'very good' in an informal use that we use to describe players, you are referring to immense as in 'the building was an immense structure'.

Brian O'Driscoll has been an immense player for Ireland over the years. Not by your use of the word, unless he is actually a rather large building?

Richie McCaw is an immense openside.

Can you honestly sit behind your computer and say Henderson was immense last night? Was he miles better than any other player on the pitch?! Does an immense player really make 7 or 8 errors in one game?! Didn't say he was better just said he was immense or 'very good' if you are not comfortable with that word.

Neither of two penalties he gave away would be given by a decent ref. Fitzgibbon

That is absolute tom kite. Have a look for yourself again with the glasses on. 41 seconds into the game, Tuilagi is tackled by Touhy and Henderson. Henderson gets up and tries to go for the ball, Dragons No.1 comes in and hits Henderson, 2 players in means the ruck is formed so Henderson cant now go for the ball as he wasnt already touching it. He then falls sideways over the ruck and slaps the ball out as hes going down. How in the world anyone thinks that isnt a penalty has never actually really watched a game or played it at any level. No was a ligit counter ruck came through the gate, looked more accidental if anything at all.

He pinged Hendo when he didn't roll away, yet it was once of those instances were it would be more disruptive to the scrum half to move and the ball was clearly available, Hendy just lay still to minimise the disruption. The second pen was for hands in the ruck. This needs a second look as Hendo was on his feet and his hands were near the ball but it looked to me more likely a dragons foot that dislodged the ball. Henderson made no scooping motion to force that ball back that I could see although his hands were in the vicinity of the ball.

So he's given away 3 pens then? Hell, I only said he gave away 6 points, and the first of I've just explained above, if the second was for not rolling away, did he put his hands in again and give away another 3?! No he gave away two.

(for the record, just lying there motionless is not good enough, players have to be seen to be making an attempt to free themselves and move away from the ball. Watch a bit more rugby and you will see players on the wrong side, clearly away from the ball still over exaggerating their movements so the referee wont ping them)

Was very harsh at least, at worst just a wrong call by the ref. He made more than two carries as far as i can remember. He knocked on but to say that these were BRAINFARTS?? That is overstating his errors and for what purpose I dont know? Anyone else think these were brainfarts?

I didnt say he only made 2 carries, I said he made 2 carries of note. He made a few carries where little to no ground was made but we were able to set up a decent platform for small paul to get the ball away, which is fine, this has to be done on occasion and Henderson done it well...but.... He made 2 carries that actually broke the gaineline and got the team going forward, at the end of one he knocked on. Again I also talked about 'brainfarts' and getting a rush of blood to the head but I didnt say these were knock ons. Its the over eagerness to try and turnover the ball or get that extra few metres on a carry that I would consider a mistake. At the minute, he just doesnt have the head to know when he can and cant do certain things, he is all heart and action and lacking in top 2 inches. You consider it a mistake to try and get and extra few metres or turn over the ball?

You say that Henderson is trying too hard to look good as a classic sign of being him being out of his depth? Classic signs according to whom? Are you seriously standing by the statement that Iain Henderson was out of his depth against the Dragons in the Pro 12 last night? Making statements like that is a reductionist approach not considering other reasons, like it was just a simple error and move on. No for you it can only mean he is trying too hard and out of his depth against the team we scored six tries against. I look forward to seeing you tryin to extricate yourself from that remark, as you no doubt will.

Try watching a bit more rugby and you'll see, hell try going down to your local rugby club at the start of the season when a few young players are being given a a chance with the big boys. They time and time again get on the pitch and try too hard to impress, and give away pens for hands in the ruck etc like Henderson did on occasion last night. You are clearly stereotyping young players, sure it happens, but Henderson isn't the liability you think he is, certainly not based on that performance. No one on this thread agrees with you on this.

No one is overhyping Henderson just reflecting on an immense performance. Hyping the guy would saying he'll be Ireland captain in 5 years time. You're free to write whatever you like, but don't expect others not to challenge you when you overstate or be overly negative for no apparent reason.

Have you read some of the posts on the site about Henderson, not so much in this thread but on the board in general. Hell, someone even suggested him as Ulster captain in the "Who will captain Ulster when Muller leaves?" thread. No but I would agree with you in disagreeing with them, but you don't need to go over the top the other way. Try being balanced and not making statements like he is out of his depth.

I dont mind being challenged when I make an opinion, this site is for discussion of such things but dont expect me not to challenge someone when they overstate or be overly positive for no apparent reason. (I did have a reason, not that I really need one for you, have you taken this a bit personally Dave?) I wasn't being overly positive, I was trying to be balanced. Not taking this personally as I'm not in the firing line. Just defending the player, who is.

In the same post you have stated, in a diachotic manner, that Henderson is out of his depth and also conversely the boy played well. How about you decide which one you are standing by. I'm suggesting the latter.

and both are possible. So he played well out of his depth??? Is that your synopsis of his performance?

He did play well for the most part, he scrummed well, he rucked well for the most part and bar a couple of poor attempted tackles he tackled well too.

However ... He made several silly mistakes that made him look out of his depth at senior level. (understandable, he is only 20 with a handful of games under his belt) Probably the most balanced thing you have written, we're getting somewhere.


As for calling him a liability, it was the 6 points in front of our posts and the potential try he cocked up that makes him a liability. He can get away with those we are playing a Dragons B team but if he makes the same kind of errors against the likes of Leinster we will be looking for a losing BP rather than a full 5 pointer. In the context of the game he gave away 2 penalties out of 14 by the team in total, I don't get why you insist in calling him a liability.

Come on now guys, does anyone here actually thing that Henderson would have been even in the matchday squad last week or the 1st XV last night if Ferris was the only back rower injured?! Who is saying that? He has been given so much game time out of necessity with 3 of our 5 potential no.6's injured.

Looking at the stats, if they are accurate. Other players gave away more or as many pens. Other players made more knock ons and messed up try scoring opportunities too. He is not a liability, and that Fuzzy is what I am objecting to, do you still stand by this claim?

He was powerful around the park and put in some strong tackles. He did infact miss two but other players missed more, but our defence was good especially in the second half. He made 5 carries, 2 of note making 28metres beating 3 defenders. He also effected a lineout steal. I'm not saying the stats tell the full story but they can verify a perception you have of a players performance. Do you still feel he was out of his depth against the dragons?

[Dave]

Now gents & ladieees, about young Fuzzmeister.

It is true to say he has gone a tad overboard about Nipper Henderson. Nipper was not a liability, most of his work was good to very good but to describe his all round performance as "immense" is very dull. I loved his industry and much of his work but I fully agree with Fuzzy that no one out there was immense last night.

Don't get me wrong, to slaughter a team on their own patch not playing remotely as well as we can is a hell of a turnaround from when poor McGlock took over. Then we would have lost the plot with the number of errors we made last night and may well have lost but last night we knew we were the better team and never looked like panicking and giving a team as poor as the Dragons a sniff of a win. All that said, I suspect that technically, in terms of errors, forced but particularly unforced, that may have been our poorest performance of the season.

Does or should anyone care? Nope, certainly shouldn't, it is ludicrous to gripe about a win of that size home or away.

The purpose of my post is simply to point out that Fuzzy makes an excellent point about over-hyping our players. For years I have seen gurns about certain Munster & Leinster players being overhyped, much of it dull & incorrect, some justified.

If we want standards from others we must have them ourselves and not slate a poster who may have overstated Nipper's flaws but we would do well to pay attention when a young player gives away two stupid penalties - anyone remember an eejit called Ryan Caldwell? I suspect nobody told him directly enough when he was an idiot. I hope that Anscombe points those 2 out in no uncertain terms to Nipper. Against a good team poor discipline like that matters.

Now can I finish by saying how absolutely excited I am about Nipper, for a guy with a handful of games behind him he looks the real business. Leg End in the making. Doc Dave should improve and extend his new contract immediately

Baggy,

I think I clarified my use of the word immense on a previous post but also add that Chris Henry was better than Henderson and made 19 tackles which I'm sure you might consider could be deemed immense? But it's only a word. I also would say that Fuzzy isn't making the point that players are overhyped. He back tracked into saying that yes but didn't intially stating that Henderson was a liability and out of his depth. In order to counter those who hype up players, the solution isn't to simply state the complete opposite of what is being said like Fuzzy, but make a balanced assessment of a performance. Fuzzy hasn't done this. He is at the other extreme.

Over hype................................Balanced view.................................Fuzzy

[fuzzylogic]

Ah Dave, Dave, Dave. I'm going to be honest, I cant even be bothered going through your post and replying to every little point again. I've already done that once and all you did was pick out the same issues again and ignore the parts where I've corrected you. Will just pick out a couple here...

To break it down:

Yes, I stand by Henderson being a liability. Ulster gave away 14 pens .... 4 of those were converted by the Dragons for 3 pointers .... Henderson gave away 2 of these. Against a team like Leinster, you cant give away 6 points like that .... thats a liability.

Henderson is a young man and he is learning his game .... when I say he is out of his depth, I dont just mean against the Dragons ... I mean as a regular starter for the Ulster 1st XV, which he has been for the past few games. He is a stop gap due to an injury crisis. When Ferris, Diack & Wilson all return to the squad Henderson will be dropped to the Ravens and maybe make 4/5 appearances off the bench for the rest of the season in an Ulster jersey (and rightly so) ... yes I fully stand by him being out of his depth at the minute

This...

No was a ligit counter ruck came through the gate, looked more accidental if anything at all.

Well, you've completely ignored what I said (and you are completely incorrect )

First of all, I never mentioned where Henderson came from, infact, im happy enough, Henderson made the tackle, got up and went for the ball as he is entitled to do so ... HOWEVER ... the Dragons number 1 bound onto Henderson before he had his hands on the ball. This in turn forms the ruck meaning no one can put hands on the ball. Doesnt matter what side Henderson came from or how he ended up scooping the ball out with his hand. He was not allowed his hands on the ball at that moment.

Secondly on your incorrect statement about "the gate" .... you contradict yourself in it. If there is a gate, then that means the ruck is already formed. If the ruck is already formed then no one can compete for the ball unless they had hands on before. If Henderson came through the gate, it would have been at the back of the ruck .... (and now that I look at it again, he didnt, he done it from the side, perfectly legal as he had just made the tackle and there was no ruck formed yet, but would have been illegal and not constituted coming in through the gate if the ruck was formed.

This...

'Immense' - immeasurable, boundless, extremely large in scale or degree. Thats the definition of immense.No it can also mean 'very good' in an informal use that we use to describe players, you are referring to immense as in 'the building was an immense structure'.

Well no, clearly not, if I was referring to the word immense as in "the being was an immense structure" why exactly would I have provided the word immeasurable. Calling a building is immense in the modern age is a grammatical error as of course, buildings now are measurable (theodolites, laser levels, computer modeling etc)

Suffering can be immense.

Potential can be immense

Performance can be of course be immense, Hendersons on Friday was not. You can quite easily measure his performance against Chris Henrys. Henry made 19 tackles, Henderson made 12. Henry missed no tackles, Henderson missed 2 .... etc etc

Brian O'Driscoll has been an immense player for Ireland over the years because his performances have been immeasurable, how do you measure a performer so consistently good?! You can certainly measure his individual performances, but collectively, no one has come close to playing at such a high level, for such a long time, often in poor teams.

Getting quite bored now so I shall finish on this point...

You consider it a mistake to try and get and extra few metres or turn over the ball?

Well yes, it most certainly can be a mistake. Poking your hands into a ruck in front of your own posts when you have no right to put them there is a mistake.

One of Pedrie Wannenburgs great strengths when he carried the ball was knowinging when to stay on his feet and when to go to ground. Ferris for example is a man who has the size, skill, brute strength and experience to put his head down and squeeze out every extra yard and stay on his feet until support arrives. Not all players can do this, it would be a mistake for a smaller or less experienced player to try and do the same. Henderson actually done this once, got slightly ahead of his support and ended up knocking on. This was a mistake.

[Big-al]

FFS, most people are aware of your opinion on Henderson. You don't need to keep posting the same old stuff, it won't change anyones mind.

Certainly not mine...

[fuzzylogic]

Good job I generally dont give two flying fecks what you think then Al.

But go on then, oh masterful one, enlighten us all, what is my opinion on him?

[Scranner]

Preface with the fact that I am delighted that Ulster's record this season is second to none, that the improvement on last year is superb and the strength in depth that we have now is very encouraging. However it seems to me that the opposition we have played against so far this season has not been of the top calibre.
Perhaps I'm being a typical glass is half empty Ulsterman when I say that I am not convinced that we will be able to continue this form against the likes of Northampton, Leinster and possibly even Munster at Thomond. Hopefully our first match against Northampton will prove me wrong and I'll end up with egg on my face. Time will tell.

[ruckover]

With the games we have in December, I don't think we'll be unbeaten at Christmas either. But if we play at 100% for all of those games, there's no reason why we can't be unbeaten. Would make a nice present

[Big-al]

Good job I generally dont give two flying fecks what you think then Al.

But go on then, oh masterful one, enlighten us all, what is my opinion on him?

I'm sure you don't.

[BaggyTrousers]

Preface with the fact that I am delighted that Ulster's record this season is second to none, that the improvement on last year is superb and the strength in depth that we have now is very encouraging. However it seems to me that the opposition we have played against so far this season has not been of the top calibre.
Perhaps I'm being a typical glass is half empty Ulsterman when I say that I am not convinced that we will be able to continue this form against the likes of Northampton, Leinster and possibly even Munster at Thomond. Hopefully our first match against Northampton will prove me wrong and I'll end up with egg on my face. Time will tell.

No, in a way you have a point. BUT what you aren't factoring in is:-

1. Three of last years Rabo top four - dispatched.
2. Unbeaten and two BPs away in Wales.
3. Castres didn't even bother "targeting" us.
4. The style of the rugby we are playing. It's more the manner of victory than the victories if you see what I mean.
5. With the exception of the HEC games we have mixed and matched with limited continuity. There's more to come from a full strength 23 IMO.

I really do see what you mean and I don't see us unbeaten by Christmas such is the size of the challenge in December.

For me, we now can play a game 2/3 different ways if we have too. It's the sort of rugby that gets you through the winter in contention and then wins you things in May.

Killjoys, absolutely no reason whatsoever why we should lose in December. It is an outside possibility but I remain convinced we are currently the best team in the Rabid & very clearly in our group. I very firmly believe in our ability to go to Franklins Gardens and bate the likes of Hartley good looking. Only a rash of injury stands between us and a home Q-F in the HC & our only serious challengers in the Rabid are themyins from Mexico. Against them we need to be sharp but I see 21st December as the day we cross the final frontier.

Keep the faith people ....................... or else

[Mac]

Keep the faith people ....................... or else

Ah BT there's no point in you turning up on people's doorsteps again looking the innocent

[rumncoke]

I don't like Positives and Negatives for the simple reason each match is a stand alone game the opposition are different from the week before the weather wind and pitch are different from the week before seldom if ever can one match be compared like to like with game the week before.

But that does not mean that all comparisons are invalid so comparing this years team to last years.

Full back last year we started off with Jared Payne who got injured waited several weeks for Stefan thus the back three lack consistency of selection in the early part of the season

In the forwards Ulsters problem was in the back row which had the mental subconscious distraction in defence of "where's Ian " "whose covering Ian " and in attack- without Ferris - the only ball carrier was 3P -- Henry is a defensive tackling back row player not a ball carrier.

Fat Nick solves the problem of a ball carrying back row player who suffers from line fever -- 5 metres out he is hard to stop good as 3P was - he was and would be easier to tackle and keep out 5 metres from the line. FN absorbs defenders.

Then Ulster have solved the Ian factor -- Humphreys in possession could take too much out of the ball by running frequently across the pitch - trying to run at defences on an erratic service this affected both his options and the quality of their performance -- i.e. gubber kicks miss directed lob kicks charged down or in to the hands of the opposition.

Jackson appears more controlled and less ambitious which seems to have reduced the errors in the back line.

I believe this combination of factors have improved Ulsters results to date this season

[Dave]

Ah Dave, Dave, Dave. I'm going to be honest, I cant even be bothered going through your post and replying to every little point again. I've already done that once and all you did was pick out the same issues again and ignore the parts where I've corrected you. Will just pick out a couple here...

To break it down:

Yes, I stand by Henderson being a liability. Ulster gave away 14 pens .... 4 of those were converted by the Dragons for 3 pointers .... Henderson gave away 2 of these. Against a team like Leinster, you cant give away 6 points like that .... thats a liability.

Henderson is a young man and he is learning his game .... when I say he is out of his depth, I dont just mean against the Dragons ... I mean as a regular starter for the Ulster 1st XV, which he has been for the past few games. He is a stop gap due to an injury crisis. When Ferris, Diack & Wilson all return to the squad Henderson will be dropped to the Ravens and maybe make 4/5 appearances off the bench for the rest of the season in an Ulster jersey (and rightly so) ... yes I fully stand by him being out of his depth at the minute

This...

No was a ligit counter ruck came through the gate, looked more accidental if anything at all.

Well, you've completely ignored what I said (and you are completely incorrect )

First of all, I never mentioned where Henderson came from, infact, im happy enough, Henderson made the tackle, got up and went for the ball as he is entitled to do so ... HOWEVER ... the Dragons number 1 bound onto Henderson before he had his hands on the ball. This in turn forms the ruck meaning no one can put hands on the ball. Doesnt matter what side Henderson came from or how he ended up scooping the ball out with his hand. He was not allowed his hands on the ball at that moment.

Secondly on your incorrect statement about "the gate" .... you contradict yourself in it. If there is a gate, then that means the ruck is already formed. If the ruck is already formed then no one can compete for the ball unless they had hands on before. If Henderson came through the gate, it would have been at the back of the ruck .... (and now that I look at it again, he didnt, he done it from the side, perfectly legal as he had just made the tackle and there was no ruck formed yet, but would have been illegal and not constituted coming in through the gate if the ruck was formed.

This...

'Immense' - immeasurable, boundless, extremely large in scale or degree. Thats the definition of immense.No it can also mean 'very good' in an informal use that we use to describe players, you are referring to immense as in 'the building was an immense structure'.

Well no, clearly not, if I was referring to the word immense as in "the being was an immense structure" why exactly would I have provided the word immeasurable. Calling a building is immense in the modern age is a grammatical error as of course, buildings now are measurable (theodolites, laser levels, computer modeling etc)

Suffering can be immense.

Potential can be immense

Performance can be of course be immense, Hendersons on Friday was not. You can quite easily measure his performance against Chris Henrys. Henry made 19 tackles, Henderson made 12. Henry missed no tackles, Henderson missed 2 .... etc etc

Brian O'Driscoll has been an immense player for Ireland over the years because his performances have been immeasurable, how do you measure a performer so consistently good?! You can certainly measure his individual performances, but collectively, no one has come close to playing at such a high level, for such a long time, often in poor teams.

Getting quite bored now so I shall finish on this point...

You consider it a mistake to try and get and extra few metres or turn over the ball?

Well yes, it most certainly can be a mistake. Poking your hands into a ruck in front of your own posts when you have no right to put them there is a mistake.

One of Pedrie Wannenburgs great strengths when he carried the ball was knowinging when to stay on his feet and when to go to ground. Ferris for example is a man who has the size, skill, brute strength and experience to put his head down and squeeze out every extra yard and stay on his feet until support arrives. Not all players can do this, it would be a mistake for a smaller or less experienced player to try and do the same. Henderson actually done this once, got slightly ahead of his support and ended up knocking on. This was a mistake.

You didn't correct me on anything. I'm picking out the same issues as you haven't convinced anyone that Henderson was a liability or out of his depth. I don't have the time to counter all the crap you have written. However...

There are three definitions of immense from most dictionaries. Where as you cobbled two together to make yer own.



1. unusually large; huge; vast
2. without limits; immeasurable
3. Informal very good; excellent

So calling a building in the modern age isn't grammatically incorrect as it can be vast. The first two refer to size so it doesn't apply to a rugby players performance as it can't really be quantified although certain aspects can. We really use the informal sense of the word which evolved from the true meaning regarding size.

The hands in ruck penalty still to me looks accidental. The other pen looked harsh to as he had no where to go, look at the replay to the tries in one of the build ups to a score a dragons players does the same thing and isn't penalised. You will also note an excellent hand off by Henderson but ignore it as it contradicts your view he is out of his depth. He isn't a liability and certainly more than held his own against the dragons so is not out of his depth.