The UAFC

I guess we all use hand signals a bit more when talking to a frenchman (some more polite than others), so that is a slight excuse.

IIRC some of the guys did a course on body-language a while back to ensure that we got the best reception when addressing the ref. RP needs to be careful that his gesticulations are not misinterpreted.

Did he call him a spide??????

I think the 2nd potential yellow was Heaslip nicking the ball whilst leaning over the Ulster ruck and presenting it backwards to his team mates.

My view is, anyone asking for yellow EXCEPT the captain should receive it themselves. Especially using the hand gesture. Total disrespect shown by Ruan in my humble one. Having said that, the captain needs to word it very respectfully too. I thought Rory went slightly over the mark against Leinster by literally telling the ref to card him, not by asking the ref to verify that a card could perhaps be the correct decision.

Something in the back of my mind says that in football a few years back they brought in the rule that if you gestured towards/asked the ref to card a player it was an automatic one yourself. I guess this was adhered to for half a season then old habits crept back in?

in case anyone's interested, I am a ref myself and demand utter respect

LeinsterLad wrote:I think we were very lucky not to get a yellow. .

.

You mean in addition to O'Brien's?

As a side issue ... anyone else sick sore and tired of a the cheap pat the player who made a mistake on the head ploy. Boils my pash that when anyone does it ... well done you cocked up ...

John_e_boy wrote:I think the 2nd potential yellow was Heaslip nicking the ball whilst leaning over the Ulster ruck and presenting it backwards to his team mates.

My view is, anyone asking for yellow EXCEPT the captain should receive it themselves. Especially using the hand gesture. Total disrespect shown by Ruan in my humble one. Having said that, the captain needs to word it very respectfully too. I thought Rory went slightly over the mark against Leinster by literally telling the ref to card him, not by asking the ref to verify that a card could perhaps be the correct decision.

Something in the back of my mind says that in football a few years back they brought in the rule that if you gestured towards/asked the ref to card a player it was an automatic one yourself. I guess this was adhered to for half a season then old habits crept back in?

in case anyone's interested, I am a ref myself and demand utter respect

If a ref doesnt take any chat from anyone, I think that is entirely fine. If a ref is taking "observations" from all and sundry, as many seem to do these days, then I think the card thing is as ok as any other suggestions.

Spot on Neil, Cullen is not only monstrously ugly but learned to much of that crap at Leicester, probably something to do with having his head too close to Castrogovanni's Brennan. He after all, is the world's leading exponent of the congratulatory pat on the back often in conjunction with a sly hairpull.

Cullen and Jennings are expert cheats thanks to their association with the Leicester Cheetahs, a team who have proudly produced such cynical cheats as Johnston, Castro, Back, Moody (hes just not very good at it) and many more. A diatribe on Leicester would not be complete without a mention of Julian White of course. The Angry Farmer was at least less sleekit than his teammates and I still glory at the sight of him rocking back from an attempted blow from Fat Ted Sheridan before sparking him for his impudence.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to do the imaginary card trick but it isn't a lot different from asking for it. Sadly the ref was too much of a homer to take his advice. We are all too ready to encourage our captains to be "in the ref's face" so proclaiming our disgust at the imaginary yellow is a tad disingenuous. Lets not get all "holier than thou" on Ruan although from what I hear of his mentalism that my be a tough ask anyway.

Yes the imaginary cards and getting in the face of the ref (fine line - but that is what you have a captain for) are not rugby I believe. Nor is this growing tendency at the breakdown to be arm waving, gesturing to ref and otherwise not focused on the play at hand. At least twice during the game we were caught off balance because a number of ours, were too busy posturing and trying to point out indiscretions as opposed to playing the game. Get on with it boys and play to the whistle ffs.

UlsterJock wrote:Yes the imaginary cards and getting in the face of the ref (fine line - but that is what you have a captain for) are not rugby I believe. Nor is this growing tendency at the breakdown to be arm waving, gesturing to ref and otherwise not focused on the play at hand. At least twice during the game we were caught off balance because a number of ours, were too busy posturing and trying to point out indiscretions as opposed to playing the game. Get on with it boys and play to the whistle ffs.

Fine in theory - but would the ref have reached for his pocket at all, if there hadn't been a ongoing barage of advice coming from RP et al?

UlsterJock wrote:Yes the imaginary cards and getting in the face of the ref (fine line - but that is what you have a captain for) are not rugby I believe. Nor is this growing tendency at the breakdown to be arm waving, gesturing to ref and otherwise not focused on the play at hand. At least twice during the game we were caught off balance because a number of ours, were too busy posturing and trying to point out indiscretions as opposed to playing the game. Get on with it boys and play to the whistle ffs.

Pienaar has won us a few penalties this season with his hand waving and gesturing, I actually admire how he can control a ref like that. The invisible card thing is a bit different and probably a step too far but then as someone pointed out the ref was French and maybe it was the only way a guy with a strong South African accent could communicate with the ref! Anyway he wasn't wrong, Leinster could have had three players carded and in theory McLaughlin could have seen red on another day.

UlsterJock wrote: Pienaar has won us a few penalties this season with his hand waving and gesturing, I actually admire how he can control a ref like that. The invisible card thing is a bit different and probably a step too far but then as someone pointed out the ref was French and maybe it was the only way a guy with a strong South African accent could communicate with the ref! Anyway he wasn't wrong, Leinster could have had three players carded and in theory McLaughlin could have seen red on another day.

That's exactly the angle I was looking at this from.

Would he have reached for the card?.....possibly yes probably no, who is to know; RP has won us a few penalties this way....is that a reason to do it.
Fundamentally I go back to the title of this post, its rugby not football and as such there is a code of conduct written or not that stands our game apart from others. We let this slip and our game will change (not for the better in my eyes).

I've officiated at sporting fixtures (not rugby) and have been on the end of players' "questionning" - sometimes not pleasant but as long as its not abusive/threatening to the ref then its ok.

I've also been that player having a go at the ref when a decision hasn't gone my way - sometimes we react in the heat of the moment in a way we later wish we hadn't - react first, think later.

I was uncomfortable seeing the card waving gesture by RP - you'd hope we didn't have to resort to that but I can understand how it happens when players get so frustrated with perceived injustice. RP generally manages refs well so I think we can forgive him this one.

My only concern is that we didn't learn the lesson from the other French Prat (Romain) last week - "I didn't give it because you ask"

UlsterJock wrote:.....possibly yes probably no,

So it works then. I don't want to see Ulster losing becasue we are too gentlmanly, but I agree it needs to be handled carefully.

Cornerfleg wrote:As a side issue ... anyone else sick sore and tired of a the cheap pat the player who made a mistake on the head ploy. Boils my pash that when anyone does it ... well done you cocked up ...

Yep, boils my pi$h too. Would be good to see it getting rubbed out of the game.