Ulster Midfield

[Big-al]

Luke Marshall is the one. He's the best 12 in the Ulster squad, unless Wallace finds some form

[againstthehead]

No way should Payne play centre for us! Great player, but we have two of the most exciting young centres in Ireland in Marshall and Spence, a current Ireland international in Wallace and two excellent club players in Cave and Whitten. Thats serious strength in depth- five very decent Irish centres- and bringing in Payne to play centre would be a bit nuts. Nah, he'll play fullback.

As for our centres- I think Spence and Cave is the right partnership for us right now. But Luke Marshall has to be given a chance to play in this team, he's simply too talented. I think he has to be accommodated on the bench for us. He can cover fullback, Spence can cover wing.

Suffice to say that even without Wallace we have three great centres, so whoever McLaughs picks he's gonna get some grief from the keyboard warriors

As for Whitten- I rate him and I think he's developing a nice offloading game. But he may well end up on the wing though because we have four quality players and it's very hard to compete. Wallace is still an important player for us; a lot of experience there.

I agree Spence is not a complete 12, but the way we're playing in the first two games of the season we're using 15 as an auxiliary playmaker. This ameriolates his lack of distribution and his strike running is very effective.

Bang on the money. Personally, I like a physical player at 1st centre and as you say spence is probably our best option at the minute. I've yet to see enough of marshall but from what you lot say he seems to be the next sonny bill williams so happy days . Really excited about seeing Payne - if he's the real deal he could make a massive difference to our back 3. That said, d'Arcy justs keep improving and it would be a shame to see him disapear from the scene completely.

[Ardglass2]

Ardglass states Spence is a better 13 than 12 where is the evidence for this assertion because I have not seen any its not in his individual try scoring its not in the trys score by players outside him which, those who say is not a 12, will state is because his distributions bad if that is the case he is definitely not a 13 because all the opposition have to do is mark Spence because the wings are dummies.

My evidence is what I have seen with my own eyes - whats yours

I don't accept his distribution is bad. His passing is not what it should be because of 2 reasons:

1. He is new to the team and has yet to make the right decision at the right time in all instances. Naturally he is playing conservatively and retaining possession and using his power. Understandable and I would expect it to improve as time goes on EXCEPT
2. He is being used as a crash ball dummy - this slightly worries me - he is much better than that.

[Big-al]

Ardglass -Wise up son, such lame excuses

[Ardglass2]

Wise up yourself.

Shame you couldn't explain why you disagree with me rather than throw out a pathetic insult
Cheap insult - the last refugee of someone with nothing meaningful to say

As for being your son then I rather suspect it is the other way round of you are a very immature person for someone in their 80's

[Big-al]

Your 1st point is the biggest pile of rubbish I've ever read on this forum. It's clear Spence is a poor passer, he even said so himself on many occassions, the man can hardly pass of his bad hand FFS!!!

No way is he a 12, he's a very simialr player to Trimble, probably has a bit more handling ability and will probably end up on the wing unless his passing improves. It may be harsh, but it's true. That's not saying he isn't a good rugby player because he clearly is

[scrum5]

Marshall has potential and plenty of it , but so has Spence and Cave, Cave looks to offload in the tackle and Spence looks to smash through the tackle, a very good combination in my opinion and it's working well at the moment, a lot of hype about Marshall from forum members but Spence received hype from the New Zealand press during the Junior WC a few seasons ago and also the Irish management of the time who thought he would be BOD's successor...It's good for Ulster that we have Paddy, Spence, Cave , Dizzy and Luke Marshall all vying for the centre spots so lets enjoy....

as for the poster who said that Cave was just a good club player

[Ardglass2]

So Big-Al when I say Spence is a better 13 than a 12 you are agreeing with me

Funny way of expressing it

My first point which you describe as the biggest pile of rubbish was that he is new to the team and tends to take the more conservative option due to his inexprience. What is a pile of rubbish - the fact he is new to the team or the fact he tends to play safe when face with a choice
Two very obvious facts as far as I can see.

IF you read carefully what I wrote I did not infer he was a good passer. I did infer he was not as bad as some are stating here - I stick by that.
As for Nevin himself - he is a modest lad who seems to be self critical so not the best basis for judgement

[fuzzylogic]

notj wrote:
No way should Payne play centre for us! Great player, but we have two of the most exciting young centres in Ireland in Marshall and Spence, a current Ireland international in Wallace and two excellent club players in Cave and Whitten.

I have to say, I 100% disagree with this. Personally, I dont really see Spence developing into anything more than a crash ball big tackling centre a la Kevin Maggs or a smaller but quicker Mike Tindall.

Cave at only 24 has much more skill and finesse than I can ever see Spence developing. He has a great offloading game and the way he can control our backline defence is second to none.

To me, over the next few years we will see Luke Marshall and Cave in the centre with Payne and Darcy sharing 15 and Trimble, Gilroy and Gaston competing for the wing positions. I dont see Spence unfortunatly in the future being anything more than a direct up the gut runner used for his physical presence.

[rumncoke]

The problem ardglass is not what you see it is with your understanding of what you see

What you see and what I see are the same thing a robust abrasive pacy player which is fine as far as it goes but a 13 needs a more vision and skill than Spence brings to the team.

The fact is you can either pass or you can't-- you can time a pass or you can't -- you make space for others or you don't they are skills you should possess long before you entry the Ulster Rugby Academy. What you gain in the academy is the knowledge of how to use those skills how to use your pace, how to use you weight and how to limit the space available to the opposition as well as the physical training and monitoring development.

If Spence were younger I would be seriously tempted to think right outside the box and play him as a 7

He's got the pace, he's got the build he can tackle and he can use his power to get over the gain line . The question is does he have the stamina.? And would he enjoy it ?

[King Ding]

Its quite frankly amazing that some people on here are starting to heavily criticise spence, one of our stand out players of last season, incase some are forgetting he has only just turned 21. Cave was given the chance to develop as a player and so should spence. Those righting him off as a crash ball centre when he clearly has more to offer need to catch themselves on. Its not his fault that ulster currently favour the smash it up style, if he was given the ball in a bit of space im confident with his pace and power he could get round his opposite number and not have to try go through him.

As for the whole cave/spence debate a lot seems to be hanging on their distribution skills, frankly neither are great passers of the ball and its no real surprise that for the last few seasons ulsters wingers had to go looking for work cause they rarely get the ball passed to them off 1st or 2nd phase.

Its the start of the season, lets try our combinations with whitten, Marshall, Spence and Cave before wallace returns and then find out our best team and not just right off youngsters after 1 game.

[againstthehead]

Its quite frankly amazing that some people on here are starting to heavily criticise spence, one of our stand out players of last season, incase some are forgetting he has only just turned 21. Cave was given the chance to develop as a player and so should spence. Those righting him off as a crash ball centre when he clearly has more to offer need to catch themselves on. Its not his fault that ulster currently favour the smash it up style, if he was given the ball in a bit of space im confident with his pace and power he could get round his opposite number and not have to try go through him.

As for the whole cave/spence debate a lot seems to be hanging on their distribution skills, frankly neither are great passers of the ball and its no real surprise that for the last few seasons ulsters wingers had to go looking for work cause they rarely get the ball passed to them off 1st or 2nd phase.

Its the start of the season, lets try our combinations with whitten, Marshall, Spence and Cave before wallace returns and then find out our best team and not just right off youngsters after 1 game.

+1

[Rooster]

notj wrote:
No way should Payne play centre for us! Great player, but we have two of the most exciting young centres in Ireland in Marshall and Spence, a current Ireland international in Wallace and two excellent club players in Cave and Whitten.

I have to say, I 100% disagree with this. Personally, I dont really see Spence developing into anything more than a crash ball big tackling centre a la Kevin Maggs or a smaller but quicker Mike Tindall.

Cave at only 24 has much more skill and finesse than I can ever see Spence developing. He has a great offloading game and the way he can control our backline defence is second to none.

To me, over the next few years we will see Luke Marshall and Cave in the centre with Payne and Darcy sharing 15 and Trimble, Gilroy and Gaston competing for the wing positions. I dont see Spence unfortunatly in the future being anything more than a direct up the gut runner used for his physical presence.

I'm agreeing with fuzzy again now where did I leave those funny tablets the nice men in white coats gave me

[Ardglass2]

Its quite frankly amazing that some people on here are starting to heavily criticise spence, one of our stand out players of last season, incase some are forgetting he has only just turned 21. Cave was given the chance to develop as a player and so should spence. Those righting him off as a crash ball centre when he clearly has more to offer need to catch themselves on. Its not his fault that ulster currently favour the smash it up style, if he was given the ball in a bit of space im confident with his pace and power he could get round his opposite number and not have to try go through him.

As for the whole cave/spence debate a lot seems to be hanging on their distribution skills, frankly neither are great passers of the ball and its no real surprise that for the last few seasons ulsters wingers had to go looking for work cause they rarely get the ball passed to them off 1st or 2nd phase.

Its the start of the season, lets try our combinations with whitten, Marshall, Spence and Cave before wallace returns and then find out our best team and not just right off youngsters after 1 game.

+1

+2

[rumncoke]

I for one am not critcising Spence he is a gem the debate is really about how to best get the benefits from his game for the benefit of the team.

The fact is we have a number of players who can play in the centre within the squad and the Academy at the moment Cave is with out doubt our best option at 13 How and where do you play Spence ?