The Good, the Bad, the Ugly

[OneMore]

Leo may be a lot of things but most of all he is a leader of Men.
...
Watch the match again from saturday if you have the time and home in on Leo. He is a warrior.

I'd say these things are a matter of perspective there big fella. I'd say, most of all, that Leo Cullen is a cheat. Before he leads anyone, before he takes any punishment, he's cheating. Call it unsporting, but honestly, he's pushing Dylan Hartley for most despised opposition player in my book.

I was there on Saturday. When Ulster were in possession I was trying to home in on Ruan Pienaar as he delivered the ball from the back of the ruck, but lo and behold, more often than not, I got an eyeful of Leo Cullen interfering, lying over the ball, wandering on the wrong side. It was consistent cheating of the worst kind. But credit to him, he's raising able deputies in Devin Toner and Cian Healy. Mind you, it's about the only thing Toner is able to do.

However, I digress. Call it sour grapes, I call it an honest assessment. They who cheated best won on Saturday.

(They also happened to keep the ball better and be more clinical, but no doubt they cheated better).

Sour bullshitting grapes Yin, Cullen was outstanding on Saturday, you need to be more circumspect about hurls of cheat, we have a brave few ourselves.

Leinster won not because they are miles better as a team, they won because they are outstandingly well coached - Johnno Gibbes is a guy Ulster could learn a lot from. They won because their discipline is much better where it counts and they won because we were profligate in not making the best of our opportunities. They also won because they have experienced the highs & lows throughout a very strong squad.

Here, hold on a minute. I give (and gave) Leinster the credit as being more clinical, and better at keeping possession.

I maintain that their cheating was better than our cheating.

Boss taking Williams at the back of *that* scrum - good cheating.
Henry on the ground preventing the ball being played - bad cheating.
Leo Cullen at every ruck he was anywhere near - good cheating.
Court joining the maul on the blind side of the ref (but right in front of the TJ) in the first few minutes - bad cheating.
Healy holding Afoa near the Ulster line - good cheating.

It's not like you to shy away from telling it as it is Baggy.

[AndyB]

Here, hold on a minute. I give (and gave) Leinster the credit as being more clinical, and better at keeping possession.

I maintain that their cheating was better than our cheating.

Boss taking Williams at the back of *that* scrum - good cheating.
Henry on the ground preventing the ball being played - bad cheating.
Leo Cullen at every ruck he was anywhere near - good cheating.
Court joining the maul on the blind side of the ref (but right in front of the TJ) in the first few minutes - bad cheating.
Healy holding Afoa near the Ulster line - good cheating.

It's not like you to shy away from telling it as it is Baggy.

You may call it good cheating but bad refereeing would be my description.

[OneMore]

You may call it good cheating but bad refereeing would be my description.

True. But when some people know how to get away with it time and time again, with different referees...

[BaggyTrousers]

Here, hold on a minute. I give (and gave) Leinster the credit as being more clinical, and better at keeping possession.

I maintain that their cheating was better than our cheating.

Boss taking Williams at the back of *that* scrum - good cheating.
Henry on the ground preventing the ball being played - bad cheating.
Leo Cullen at every ruck he was anywhere near - good cheating.
Court joining the maul on the blind side of the ref (but right in front of the TJ) in the first few minutes - bad cheating.
Healy holding Afoa near the Ulster line - good cheating.

It's not like you to shy away from telling it as it is Baggy.

Yeah , yeah, yeah Yin, thing is that in effect you are saying that every match is won by the better cheats, did we cheat better than them at Ravenhill & RDS in April?

That's why I'm saying its bullshit.

[BaggyTrousers]

Here, hold on a minute. I give (and gave) Leinster the credit as being more clinical, and better at keeping possession.

I maintain that their cheating was better than our cheating.

Boss taking Williams at the back of *that* scrum - good cheating.
Henry on the ground preventing the ball being played - bad cheating.
Leo Cullen at every ruck he was anywhere near - good cheating.
Court joining the maul on the blind side of the ref (but right in front of the TJ) in the first few minutes - bad cheating.
Healy holding Afoa near the Ulster line - good cheating.

It's not like you to shy away from telling it as it is Baggy.

You may call it good cheating but bad refereeing would be my description.

You could be right Andy but refs only have one pair of eyes, no ref on the planet could catch every offence & I would contend that neither would it be good for the game if they did, you could penalise every scrum & lineout several times over, the game would never flow.

All that can be asked of a ref is that he impartially refs what he sees and tries to allow the game to flow if at all possible (the players don't absolutely extract the Michael), you can't do that with persistent whistle.

I've now watched the game live & twice on tv, every time I see it Lacey gets better and our first 10 minutes reeks to high heaven every time. Game effectively over at that stage.

[ruckover]

For the first ten minutes we simply had to hold them out instead of flopping in off our feet and in the side at every ruck trying to be competitive. Once they got their hands on possession we would've been better frustrating them by simply stopping them getting across the gain line and forcing them to kick it away, rather than trying to compete to get the ball back. Discipline was poor, first ten minutes was worse.

[rumncoke]

The more I watch it baggy the more sure i am of the fact that Lacey was an incompetent well out of his comfort zone

Just watch his performance at the Jackson incident.

He puts the hand in the pocket to go for a card

The only card able offence he knows of at that time is Heaslip's cynical coming through the side on Pienaar before he touches the ball.

He goes over to Fitzgibbon who informs of Jackson's Collaring by Nacewa who he comes back and cards him.

Cullen distracts him and he forgets about Heaslip.

His greatest mistake was his persistent blowing early for minor offences sometimes it is better to actually let the game and play evolve at its own pace and referee at a pace you are comfortable with by trying to be decisive he made many mistakes in what were 50/50 calls while missing other more serious and persistent offences.
eg playing the man without the ball .
There are only offences in Rugby the only time a player is guilty of cheating is when he claims an offence has been committed when no offence has occurred .

Cullen is an alternative cheat ie he claims no offence has occurred when everybody has seen it.

Most players know when they have offended sometimes it is accidental such as offside more frequently with Leinster it is the game style to push the barrier of legality to its limits and beyond.

[AndyB]

Here, hold on a minute. I give (and gave) Leinster the credit as being more clinical, and better at keeping possession.

I maintain that their cheating was better than our cheating.

Boss taking Williams at the back of *that* scrum - good cheating.
Henry on the ground preventing the ball being played - bad cheating.
Leo Cullen at every ruck he was anywhere near - good cheating.
Court joining the maul on the blind side of the ref (but right in front of the TJ) in the first few minutes - bad cheating.
Healy holding Afoa near the Ulster line - good cheating.

It's not like you to shy away from telling it as it is Baggy.

You may call it good cheating but bad refereeing would be my description.

You could be right Andy but refs only have one pair of eyes, no ref on the planet could catch every offence & I would contend that neither would it be good for the game if they did, you could penalise every scrum & lineout several times over, the game would never flow.

All that can be asked of a ref is that he impartially refs what he sees and tries to allow the game to flow if at all possible (the players don't absolutely extract the Michael), you can't do that with persistent whistle.

I've now watched the game live & twice on tv, every time I see it Lacey gets better and our first 10 minutes reeks to high heaven every time. Game effectively over at that stage.

That's why I haven't watched it on tv yet. I was depressed enough on Saturday.

[OneMore]

Yeah , yeah, yeah Yin, thing is that in effect you are saying that every match is won by the better cheats, did we cheat better than them at Ravenhill & RDS in April?

That's why I'm saying its bullshit.

No. I'm not saying every match is won by the better cheats. I'm not even saying that their cheating was the sole (or even biggest) factor in their victory.

They won for a combination of factors. And I think they cheated better than us.

...apology accepted, ye big ballix ye.

[BaggyTrousers]

Quality Yin, think that's the second time you've imagined that I've apologised to you.

do very occasionally apologise I did so over the weekend to a friend who I was trying to get to smile and cheer up by making an obscene gesture at him. Sadly misguided attempt but we're all good now. You my dear...... In you dreams

[BaggyTrousers]

The more I watch it baggy the more sure i am of the fact that Lacey was an incompetent well out of his comfort zone

Just watch his performance at the Jackson incident.

He puts the hand in the pocket to go for a card

The only card able offence he knows of at that time is Heaslip's cynical coming through the side on Pienaar before he touches the ball.

He goes over to Fitzgibbon who informs of Jackson's Collaring by Nacewa who he comes back and cards him.

Cullen distracts him and he forgets about Heaslip.

His greatest mistake was his persistent blowing early for minor offences sometimes it is better to actually let the game and play evolve at its own pace and referee at a pace you are comfortable with by trying to be decisive he made many mistakes in what were 50/50 calls while missing other more serious and persistent offences.
eg playing the man without the ball .
There are only offences in Rugby the only time a player is guilty of cheating is when he claims an offence has been committed when no offence has occurred .

Cullen is an alternative cheat ie he claims no offence has occurred when everybody has seen it.

Most players know when they have offended sometimes it is accidental such as offside more frequently with Leinster it is the game style to push the barrier of legality to its limits and beyond.

Rum'n, my comment that Lacey "gets better with each viewing" comes from a position where at the game I thought he was their 16th man. On re-watching it I have seen that he got most things right but plenty wrong or missed and unfortunately much of what he missed happened in crucial positions for Ulster.

I absolutely don't believe he "Clancied " us. Not his best game, but he has reffed us previously & I have thought he was fine. Maybe in a big match he wasn't up to it, then again how to they get there without the experience?

I do absolutely agree with Ruckie that a League Final should be reffed by a known high class ref from a neutral country though I'm not convinced that Poite or Owens would necessarily have been in charge of an Ulster victory. Ulster need to look to themselves for the reasons they lost. I will watch it again at least once for I think there was plenty there that we did very well & plenty that we didn't but can learn from.

I believe that Ulster lost the game in the 1st 10 minutes by poor play, Leinster are not a team you want to engage in a game of catch-up. They have players who will fight you tooth & nail, plenty of them.

I think you have it all wrong on "The Jackson Incident", I think the reason that he went over to Fitzgibbon was actually for an opinion from the side as to whether or not Nacewa's collaring of Ginger Prince was a penalty try or not. Fitzgibbon from the side would have had a better idea of if he should consider a pen try or even a red card, for GP was rag-dolled. Whether or not he could have referred it is another matter & incidentally although Conway was close I believe that momentum could well have got GP over the line, it just wasn't clear cut enough for the penalty try. Anyway, Joe wouldn't have liked that.

[pwrmoore]

Just to thow the cat amongst the pigeons. Has anyone watched Leinster's first try closely?

Strauss throws the ball in and it is caught and quickly snaffled to the back to the maul that are setting up. Strauss runs across and joins the maul, forget about the back foot - he actually joins in front of the ball carrier. The ball carrier then completely detaches from the maul to better position himself and re-binds. Then it surges forward over the line.

That try cost us dearly and could have been ruled illegal on those two counts alone.

[Cornerfleg]

Leo Cullen is the sort of guy who will always get the opposition fans annoyed. If he played for Ulster we would love him - look how well liked Justin Harrison was when he was one of us.
Cullen is nowhere near in the league of guys like Hartley.

I don't care how many this upsets ... Justin was a super guy off pitch, met him a few times ... respect for him that way ... but a complete weaste of a big budget on the pitch IMHO. Spent too much time telling refs he had a world cup winning medal rather than getting stuck in.

[Cornerfleg]

Just to thow the cat amongst the pigeons. Has anyone watched Leinster's first try closely?

Strauss throws the ball in and it is caught and quickly snaffled to the back to the maul that are setting up. Strauss runs across and joins the maul, forget about the back foot - he actually joins in front of the ball carrier. The ball carrier then completely detaches from the maul to better position himself and re-binds. Then it surges forward over the line.

That try cost us dearly and could have been ruled illegal on those two counts alone.

I thought that at the time myself ...

[OneMore]

Just to thow the cat amongst the pigeons. Has anyone watched Leinster's first try closely?

Strauss throws the ball in and it is caught and quickly snaffled to the back to the maul that are setting up. Strauss runs across and joins the maul, forget about the back foot - he actually joins in front of the ball carrier. The ball carrier then completely detaches from the maul to better position himself and re-binds. Then it surges forward over the line.

That try cost us dearly and could have been ruled illegal on those two counts alone.

I thought that at the time myself ...

Ye's will have Baggy on to you in no time...