The UAFC

Spiffsson wrote:Henderson got a scant five minutes at the end of the game, but made at least three massive contributions that could potentially have been match saving. With a tiring Irish pack, and an obvious need for a powerful carrier, I can't understand why Schmidt left it so late to give him a run. What a waste of an outstanding talent. Or am I missing something here?

Contrary to popular & growing legend, Schmidt is not infallible. With Ireland getting close to being physically destroyed he was required at least 10 minutes earlier, indeed I had expected him to come on for Heaslip & for Toner to pay the 80.

Snipe Watson wrote: Let's make one thing clear. When Toner came into the Ireland team I thought he was a big lanky waste of space, but he has developed a real hard edge and grown into a strong performer. The reason he is there is because he is a very good player.
His abilities go well beyond lineout.

My feelings exactly, I suspect Toner's progress has surprised everyone, himself included. He has become a very very sound player all round the pitch.

I suspect that the expected absence of Heaslip will actually show a few people what he really does bring to the party, it's been quite fashionable to knock him in recent years.

Actually I'd love to see if Hendo has the makings of a great no.8 but don't expect Schmidt to try that one out against England.

Snipe Watson wrote:

CIMANFOREVER wrote:Toners there cos he's a banker at line out time, and serious disruption on oppo ball. BUT, Hendo is superior in every other aspect, including scrummaging, which is why he must start against England, especially with Heaslip out and SOB not match fit. Backrow v Angleterre will be interesting. Has Pom played 7 recently? Hendo, SOB POM. Or POM & SOB alternating on put-in. Suspect they will go with Ragdoll though. Allez les Mexico Blues!
It almost sounds like I care.

Let's make one thing clear. When Toner came into the Ireland team I thought he was a big lanky waste of space, but he has developed a real hard edge and grown into a strong performer. The reason he is there is because he is a very good player.
His abilities go well beyond lineout.

Agree 100%

Once a Knight wrote:

BaggyTrousers wrote:

Spiffsson wrote:Henderson got a scant five minutes at the end of the game, but made at least three massive contributions that could potentially have been match saving. With a tiring Irish pack, and an obvious need for a powerful carrier, I can't understand why Schmidt left it so late to give him a run. What a waste of an outstanding talent. Or am I missing something here?

Contrary to popular & growing legend, Schmidt is not infallible. With Ireland getting close to being physically destroyed he was required at least 10 minutes earlier, indeed I had expected him to come on for Heaslip & for Toner to pay the 80.

Best got binned and Heaslip was injured. I think that threw the cat amongst the pigeons Baggy. I was there and there was warming up going on prior to Best being binned. I could see who it was but suspect there were about to be changes.

I'm indebted to you for that observation, I could barely see the bloody screen never mind hear what was going on. I do hold to the notion that a bull like Hendo would have helped stem the flow of the French bruisers mind you.

Snipe Watson wrote:

CIMANFOREVER wrote:Toners there cos he's a banker at line out time, and serious disruption on oppo ball. BUT, Hendo is superior in every other aspect, including scrummaging, which is why he must start against England, especially with Heaslip out and SOB not match fit. Backrow v Angleterre will be interesting. Has Pom played 7 recently? Hendo, SOB POM. Or POM & SOB alternating on put-in. Suspect they will go with Ragdoll though. Allez les Mexico Blues!
It almost sounds like I care.

Let's make one thing clear. When Toner came into the Ireland team I thought he was a big lanky waste of space, but he has developed a real hard edge and grown into a strong performer. The reason he is there is because he is a very good player.
His abilities go well beyond lineout.

Snipe, let me make a couple of points in riposte;
1. I never said Toner was a waste of space.
2. Toner, I agree has developed beyond recognition from 2-3 years ago. However, I stand by my contention, bar lineout, Hendo is the superior player. He is, as you say, relatively a very good player, but Hendo is better. No disgrace that tbh.
However, there is no comparison in the loose, whether tackling or carrying. Hendo's scrummaging is also more powerful, based on relative bulk versus height, and subsequent body position. Regardless of what I think, Toner in all probabilty, will start against England. But if JS thinks breaking Hendo in gently is the way forward, then that's a mistake IMO. The guy needs full on game time to continue his rate of development. He should be up with Etzebeth now.

Toner is better in the tight and the loose than Paulie

CIMANFOREVER wrote:

Snipe Watson wrote:

CIMANFOREVER wrote:Toners there cos he's a banker at line out time, and serious disruption on oppo ball. BUT, Hendo is superior in every other aspect, including scrummaging, which is why he must start against England, especially with Heaslip out and SOB not match fit. Backrow v Angleterre will be interesting. Has Pom played 7 recently? Hendo, SOB POM. Or POM & SOB alternating on put-in. Suspect they will go with Ragdoll though. Allez les Mexico Blues!
It almost sounds like I care.

Let's make one thing clear. When Toner came into the Ireland team I thought he was a big lanky waste of space, but he has developed a real hard edge and grown into a strong performer. The reason he is there is because he is a very good player.
His abilities go well beyond lineout.

Snipe, let me make a couple of points in riposte;
1. I never said Toner was a waste of space.I know you didn't, but i used to think it.
2. Toner, I agree has developed beyond recognition from 2-3 years ago. However, I stand by my contention, bar lineout, Hendo is the superior player. He is, as you say, relatively a very good player, but Hendo is better. No disgrace that tbh.I didn't say relatively
However, there is no comparison in the loose, whether tackling or carrying. Hendo's scrummaging is also more powerful, based on relative bulk versus height, and subsequent body position. Regardless of what I think, Toner in all probabilty, will start against England. But if JS thinks breaking Hendo in gently is the way forward, then that's a mistake IMO. The guy needs full on game time to continue his rate of development. He should be up with Etzebeth now.

I'm not remotely knocking Hendo. I'm on the record as calling him as a Lion for 2017. He will replace POC, not Toner.

My belief is that Snipe is correct. The reality is we have a ton of backrowers, including ones who are pretty young. We have feck all coming through at lock anywhere near the level of POC, except Hendo.

In an ideal world Hendo would be at 6 or even preferably at 8 longer term but we are not there.

Russ wrote:Toner is better in the tight and the loose than Paulie

Do give up the day job. This is gold.

Shan wrote:

Russ wrote:Toner is better in the tight and the loose than Paulie

Do give up the day job. This is gold.

Ive been having great fun pulling your leg old han

In all seriousness though, Toner has learnt to carry whilst Paulie has engaged a second reverse gear

Russ wrote:

Shan wrote:

Russ wrote:Toner is better in the tight and the loose than Paulie

Do give up the day job. This is gold.

Ive been having great fun pulling your leg old han

In all seriousness though, Toner has learnt to carry whilst Paulie has engaged a second reverse gear

But you haven't pulled my leg at all. I'm well used to you and I think you would do well on the stage.

Toner was very good last year and has continued that now. I though he has an impressive game yesterday. POC did actually make ground a few times yesterday with ball in hand but it is not a strength of his. Even when he was younger he wasn't great at it. He's some man for tackling though and not just on the stats sheet. When he hits someone they f-cking know about it. He's a sneaky fecker at the breakdown too as all the really great forwards are. Another reason why I like the look of Hendo. Ulster players recently haven't been well known for this aspect of play, apart from Ferris and Henry to a large extent. I reckon Hendo has the ability to be a real ballix to play against but he's not there yet, unsurprisingly given his age and experience level.

Shan wrote:

Russ wrote:

Shan wrote:

Russ wrote:Toner is better in the tight and the loose than Paulie

Do give up the day job. This is gold.

Ive been having great fun pulling your leg old han

In all seriousness though, Toner has learnt to carry whilst Paulie has engaged a second reverse gear

But you haven't pulled my leg at all. I'm well used to you and I think you would do well on the stage.

Toner was very good last year and has continued that now. I though he has an impressive game yesterday. POC did actually make ground a few times yesterday with ball in hand but it is not a strength of his. Even when he was younger he wasn't great at it. He's some man for tackling though and not just on the stats sheet. When he hits someone they f-cking know about it. He's a sneaky fecker at the breakdown too as all the really great forwards are. Another reason why I like the look of Hendo. Ulster players recently haven't been well known for this aspect of play, apart from Ferris and Henry to a large extent. I reckon Hendo has the ability to be a real ballix to play against but he's not there yet, unsurprisingly given his age and experience level.

I think he is there now. Too good to leave out, no matter what his age, and he's not that young anymore anyway. Since Ferris quit, nobody in Ireland hits a ruck with the same power as Hendo. Add in all his other attributes (including lineout) and he is more or less the complete package. If we have spare backrowers to burn (and I'm not all that sure we have), then ok, play him at lock. There is far more to his game than Toner's. This is a cruel and stupid waste of Irelands best all-round forward. Yes - I am biased. Completely.

It is a peculiar situation, Toner by virtue of his extreme height is a coach's dream, as close to guaranteed lineout ball as you will get and having from apparently nowhere found an all-around game to go with it is undroppable.

Then you have Paulie, a living legend that several idiots here said was finished, in January. He is so crucial to the pack that you have to be blind or biased not to understand it.

Then you have Hendo.

Nice problem.

Spiffsson wrote:
I think he is there now. Too good to leave out, no matter what his age, and he's not that young anymore anyway. Since Ferris quit, nobody in Ireland hits a ruck with the same power as Hendo. Add in all his other attributes (including lineout) and he is more or less the complete package. If we have spare backrowers to burn (and I'm not all that sure we have), then ok, play him at lock. There is far more to his game than Toner's. This is a cruel and stupid waste of Irelands best all-round forward. Yes - I am biased. Completely.

Tis all opinions and no issue with that.

One thing I would say is that I really hope Hendo has not already hit his peak. Any inexperienced player who will not develop with international gametime is destined for an unhappy time in terms of the longevity of their international career. I don't believe I've ever seen an Irish player of standing who has not improved in his first few years, at least, of international competition.

BaggyTrousers wrote:It is a peculiar situation, Toner by virtue of his extreme height is a coach's dream, as close to guaranteed lineout ball as you will get and having from apparently nowhere found an all-around game to go with it is undroppable.

Then you have Paulie, a living legend that several idiots here said was finished, in January. He is so crucial to the pack that you have to be blind or biased not to understand it.

Then you have Hendo.

Nice problem.

The only one I recall suggesting this was the KBE and he is far from being an idiot as you well know. There may have others though and some of them may indeed be idiots.


Anyway I agree it is a nice problem. It would be even nicer if we can get another second row of at least decent standard in the running for the RWC. Put it this way- I don't want to see that tool McCarthy anywhere near the Irish squad. Ryan would be preferable as next in line.....after that Tuohy and Foley, although I have an open question on the latter but he's still better than Middling Mike.