Fibber Joe Must go

[Russ]

Zebo would have been just as much of a windmill as the Kearneys

Could have powered Cork for a week if those 3 were in the team

[bazzaj]

What Neil said.
I can't somehow feel a retraction coming on from spiffers and I would love to know who these up and coming superstars are that would have come in and changed the result..
Or the tactics that would have done the same.
Banging head on wall icon on standby.

I am not claiming such superstars exist in the current squad (as I suspect you well know). I am talking more about specific selections for the last couple of games (Kearneys X2; Jordi M; Earls at 13 instead of wing; no Zebo; no Cave; Strauss?). In reality I doubt if any selection would have won against a very good, balanced, powerful, fast, smart Argie team.
As for tactics - here I am refering to Irelands overall tactics in all games, of kicking the ball to the opposition instead of retaining possession; and the passive form of defence which concedes much ground to the opposition before tackles are even attempted, instead of trying to hammer them back across the gain line.
You know I am not a Jonny-come-lately in this issue, who is jumping on the band wagon after the event. I have been open and consistent in expressing my views on the limitations of Joeball since the last 6N and before.

You mention the passive defending and as Jackie mentioned this was a lot down to Earls.
Again Payne plays we don't have that problem so it was another significant injury issue as we highlighted but to pick Earls in the centre after his defensive lapses against Italy was a big time mistake.

[Rooster]

What Neil said.
I can't somehow feel a retraction coming on from spiffers and I would love to know who these up and coming superstars are that would have come in and changed the result..
Or the tactics that would have done the same.
Banging head on wall icon on standby.

I am not claiming such superstars exist in the current squad (as I suspect you well know). I am talking more about specific selections for the last couple of games (Kearneys X2; Jordi M; Earls at 13 instead of wing; no Zebo; no Cave; Strauss?). In reality I doubt if any selection would have won against a very good, balanced, powerful, fast, smart Argie team.
As for tactics - here I am refering to Irelands overall tactics in all games, of kicking the ball to the opposition instead of retaining possession; and the passive form of defence which concedes much ground to the opposition before tackles are even attempted, instead of trying to hammer them back across the gain line.
You know I am not a Jonny-come-lately in this issue, who is jumping on the band wagon after the event. I have been open and consistent in expressing my views on the limitations of Joeball since the last 6N and before.

You mention the passive defending and as Jackie mentioned this was a lot down to Earls.
Again Payne plays we don't have that problem so it was another significant injury issue as we highlighted but to pick Earls in the centre after his defensive lapses against Italy was a big time mistake.

If Cave had played for the injured Payne he knows defence organising better than anyone else at Ulster so would have been a far better choice than Earls at 13

[BuckRogers]

Some serious one-eyed horse manure.

Some of the selections were poor: I personally wouldn't have picked Dave Kearney because he's slower than time but hey he's a 6N winner under Schmidt and was supposedly ripping up trees in training. Bowe by contrast turned up terribly off the pace after the honeymoon, understandable perhaps but equally possibly unprofessional in a World Cup year. I wouldn't ever pick Earls at 13, doubly so when he's a class winger with pace Daverage could only dream about.

That said whilst picking Earls at 13 might not have been the best idea I didn't think Cave did much at 13 against England when he came on and he played 12 against Romania so what to do? Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You can bet if Cave had started and we'd still been filleted out wide he'd be being crucified as some here are criticising Earls.

In terms of tactics, you've already had Bullsh1te called on you in another thread with a hysterical overreaction to Kiss' qualities as a defensive coach. Our tactics, however limited they are or were won us two 6N. The tactics are based on winning the collisions, disrupting the opposition at ruck time and keeping control of the ball regardless of how dour/boring it is and also to play a fairly territorial game.

The tactical problem was the players who replaced the injured players were not physical and/or good enough. Henry is a great player for Ulster but physically he can't hold a candle to O'Brien's power. Jordi Murphy isn't half the player the maligned POM is. Henderson is probably more physically capable than POC but isn't the leader/brutal bast@rd POC is. Madigan and Quiff, need I say more?

The point that those refuting it fault to engage upon is that we lost 5 players.

If those 5 players were say Healy, Toner, Earls, Kearney and Bowe we would possibly or maybe even probably been able to ride it out.

The fact is they weren't just five team players. They were five key players. Equally if we'd lost Best, Ross, Heaslip, Murray and Henshaw we would have struggled had we kept the injured 5 fit.

I accept the depth argument to a point but it is what it is. There's a gulf in class behind some and unfortunately for Ireland we lost five irreplaceable players.

As I said earlier when I highlighted the key players of NZ, SA, Aus and Argentina who play in the same positions as our players every single one of them would seriously struggle without them.

There is more to Ireland's defeat than injury but to try and downplay the impact of those 5 key players being missing is somewhere between being completely clueless or wilfully negligent to grind an axe.

[bazzaj]

I think its another case of people refusing to accept the logical answer over wanting to persue whatever agenda they are on about.
In this case not to look at our 5 absentees as being the overriding reason for our exit beggars belief.
Buck Neil and I have tried to state the bleeding obvious from various angles and its all fallen on deaf ears.

Wales lost two key players before the world cup but they had time to prepare a side before their first real test.
We had less than a week to replace four.
If you cant see that would be a major factor its pointlessness personified.

[Spiffsson]

Well I'm not daft enough to think that injuries to several key players are not important. But when you pair of cyclops regain yer equlibrium, you might understand that reference to injured players is implicit (and I would have assumed bleeding obvious) under my strength-in-depth argument. Just to clarify, it goes like this : If key players get injured, then, if you do not have reserve players of equal quality, you are in trouble.
You say we are out because we lost five top players. I say we are out because we did not have adequate players to replace them in our limited RWC squad. I think it amounts to the same thing. (We may have been out with a full team anyway).

[BuckRogers]

But what side does have that sort of SID? What side could lose five key players at the stroke of a brush and deal with it against one of the better sides in world rugby?

NZ at a push perhaps but I would wager if they lost Retallick, McCaw, Kaino, Carter and Smith going into the French game or more pertinently the SA game there'd be more than a few kiwis touching cloth.

Selections could have been better and tactics tweaked a little but at this stage the die was largely cast and we were only ever going to play one way, the way we've played for two years at this stage. It's not always been pretty but it has been pretty effective in terms of results.

For what it's worth I do think Cave at 13 might have made a difference in our defence and Earls would almost certainly not have got skinned like Daverage but that's with the value of hindsight. Kearney was put in that position because they Argies had bollocked through our usual solid fringe defence (Toner flopping like a fish will live long in the memory) and pulled us in tight because our physicality minus POC/SOB/POM and even Sexton was lacking.

Rugby is a simple enough game if you're on the front foot. For the opening 20 Ireland were reeling badly on the back foot.

[BaggyTrousers]

Take Pocock and Hooper out of Australia you have a mediocre side.
We lost 4 key players and on field leaders not including Payne and yet we are startled when we play under par.

The general consensus before a ball was kicked that if we lost Sexton alone we were stuffed.
Its one thing to bemoan tactics as others have done or selections as I have done with Earls in the centre but I find it disappointing that even with the benefit of hindsight people don't realise we were on a hiding to nothing with those players out for that game.

PS whisper it but the mediocre Leinster winger was our best attacking threat and kept us in the game.

Jizzer, I'm normally happy to read your posts but after that first line I shrugged and considered the pernicious influence Rumn can wield without opening his bake. Any sense you talked after line one was lost to me.

I am glad to see that Buck and Neil concur with me Bagster and I don't understand why you don't.
We were blown away in the first 20 particularly in the back row as Henry and Murphy were not up speed with the pace with of the game as they hadn't been playing at that level.
Naturally they got better as the game wore on.

Argentina exploited that and whilst I was talking them up before the game even with our best players unavailable we made them look ordinary at times.
Now everyone thinks they are world beaters and going to the other extreme.
Fully expect for that reason that Oz will dispatch them with something to spare if Pocock and Hooper are fit they will have a field day and their backs hshould have too much class.

Another thing, Australia without Hooper against Wales and Pocock against Scotland looked half the side to the one that played England and could have lost either game.
We had 5 out and 4 of whom were our best players
Go figure.

Because Jizzer, after your ludicrous first line - a Rum'nlackofreason special - I stopped reading. I do that after ridiculous first lines ......... sorry, It's a habit I am happy to live with, if I miss a pearl of wisdom, so be it.

[BaggyTrousers]

I haven;t read most of the recent posts but I usually have a look at yours

Some serious one-eyed horse manure.

Some of the selections were pooragreed without even looking at detail.: I personally wouldn't have picked Dave Kearney because he's slower than time but hey he's a 6N winner under Schmidt and was supposedly ripping up trees in training That's what I heard. Bowe by contrast turned up terribly off the pace after the honeymoon, understandable perhaps but equally possibly unprofessional in a World Cup yearSaid all along he would be picked, Fibberball specialist. I wouldn't ever pick Earls at 13Agreed, doubly so when he's a class winger with pace Daverage could only dream about.

That said whilst picking Earls at 13 might not have been the best idea I didn't think Cave did much at 13 against England when he came on Nonsense ould hand, 15 minutes on a beaten team? We've done this one before, I just disagreeand he played 12 against Romania so what to do? Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You can bet if Cave had started and we'd still been filleted out wide he'd be being crucified as some here are criticising Earls.

In terms of tactics, you've already had Bullsh1te called on you in another thread with a hysterical overreaction to Kiss' qualities as a defensive coach. Our tactics, however limited they are or were won us two 6NCorrect but frankly I'm glad they are shown to be worthless in the big show. The tactics are based on winning the collisions, disrupting the opposition at ruck time and keeping control of the ball regardless of how dour/boring it is and also to play a fairly territorial game.

The tactical problem was the players who replaced the injured players were not physical and/or good enough. Henry is a great player for Ulster but physically he can't hold a candle to O'Brien's power.Agree, though with two of the usual 3 he does a very decent job Jordi Murphy isn't half the player the maligned POM isNot even close. Henderson is probably more physically capable than POC but isn't the leader/brutal bast@rd POC isI thought Hendy didn't come close to filling those big boots. Madigan and Quiff, need I say more?Aye, 2 chubes

The point that those refuting it fault to engage upon is that we lost 5 players.

If those 5 players were say Healy, Toner, Earls, Kearney and Bowe we would possibly or maybe even probably been able to ride it out.

The fact is they weren't just five team players. They were five key players. Equally if we'd lost Best, Ross, Heaslip, Murray and Henshaw we would have struggled had we kept the injured 5 fit.Zackerly, those who are talking keek about "the injuries don't explain the loss are fu@king idiots. Even that weakened team were a non-cowardly ref away from winning after a ghastly start with the game lost after 13 minutes, then rather amazingly got back into it .......then Garces bottled it.

I accept the depth argument to a point but it is what it is. There's a gulf in class behind some and unfortunately for Ireland we lost five irreplaceable players.

As I said earlier when I highlighted the key players of NZ, SA, Aus and Argentina who play in the same positions as our players every single one of them would seriously struggle without them.

There is more to Ireland's defeat than injury but to try and downplay the impact of those 5 key players being missing is somewhere between being completely clueless or wilfully negligent to grind an axe. Agreed

[BuckRogers]

I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.

[Snipe Watson]

Buck is of course quite right. The more I think about Sunday, the more I think that the leadership we lost in POC and POM was massive factor too. Jaime is an honest hard working player and a super athlete, but he's not a savage like POM, a brute like SOB or a leader of men like POC. People are quick to decry POM, talking about him grabbing opposition players by the throat and so on, but he's a heck of a competitor, a proper enforcer. I think Jordi who is really just Jamie light, simply buckled under the pressure. POM may get beaten, but he'll not yield an inch. If POC and POM had been there, I don't think we would have shipped 20 points in the first quarter of the game. After that who knows.

[Snipe Watson]

I think we are largely in agreement BT. The cave thing is one we will have to agree to disagree on, obviously I'd love nothing more than Cave to make hay in the next two months and make himself the only viable option at 13 come the 6N but he's on the back foot if this World Cup is anything to go by.

I am hoping he and McCloskey will do serious damage if our pack can give them some ball.

I don't understand the Cave thing. For Ulster he is a legendary performer, but I have never been convinced by him in green. What is it, does he try too hard? Is it just a step up too far? Has he developed a mental block? It's a total mystery to me.

[BuckRogers]

He'd a great game against Wales first up in the warm ups, giving Darcy who the blind man on the galloping horse knew was past it, was a boot in the balls IMO. He needed a hit out against a half decent side and wasn't given that run save for the 20/25 minutes against England at Twickers which was a thankless task.

I'd feign outrage and say he's been treated poorly by Schmidt but there's probably quite a lot id allow myself to be subjected to for €35 for 5 weeks work. He's a professional he has to can it and move onwards and upwards in an environment he has always thrived in.

[Snipe Watson]

He'd a great game against Wales first up in the warm ups, giving Darcy who the blind man on the galloping horse knew was past it, was a boot in the balls IMO. He needed a hit out against a half decent side and wasn't given that run save for the 20/25 minutes against England at Twickers which was a thankless task.

I'd feign outrage and say he's been treated poorly by Schmidt but there's probably quite a lot id allow myself to be subjected to for €35 for 5 weeks work. He's a professional he has to can it and move onwards and upwards in an environment he has always thrived in.

7 Euro a week? jeepers Russ is right.

[BuckRogers]

Jesus too late missed a k