The UAFC

pythagoras wrote:

rumncoke wrote: Would anybody wish to identify the difference between an "offload" and a "pass" in my humble opinion the term "offload" is just a smartarsed bit of Sky commentary speak to sound knowledgable and or make the humble front row forward seem like a rugby player when he fumbles a ball into the hands of someone beside him.

Apparently an offload is a pass after you're tackled.
OK, I didn't know that until about 1 minute ago!

Offload is differentiated mostly because a "pass" could be anything from chucking the ball across to the full back when they've booted it down field, to trying to offload.
An "offload" needs to be differentiated, because the main point of running at a defender is often not to trundle over him, but to ensure he is busy tackling you when someone else has the ball, so if you ride the tackle and offload it to someone else, it can cause problems for the defence. Well timed passes are often put down as offloads as well, mostly when you get the "drawing the man" tactic being employed.
If you watch, Darren Cave is a master at this, it's why he has the highest offloading stats of most irish players, as well as pretty much setting up every try for Ulster for about 2 months last year.

Shan wrote:

ruckover wrote:
Shan you had convinced me I had Jones all wrong until you mentioned the infallible Quiffy and then I knew I had to disregard everything you had said before as uneducated waffle

Madigan is a good player, I will not deny that. But on Sunday he was alright, no better. He will not be given the same space and freedom against the best sides and that is what concerns me as he doesn't have the composure to seize a tight game by the scruff of the neck. From there it's 50/50 on which way the game will go.

Fair enough. Tis good to disagree and even to dismiss my ramblings as waffle. I'm not even miffed by you calling such waffle uneducated.

I do agree with you in relation to the comment about composure to seize a tight game etc. As I said earlier I don't see him as a 10. I think at 12 he could be a big asset.

Don't be so harsh on yourself, some of your stuff is semi-educated

Shan I know Felix is not Munster born and bred but any one who is willing to wear the jersey from a Munsterfans point of view is a Munster man ,and having been accepted as such becomes the greatest thing since slice bread .

Sometimes self confidence can be a positive factor and sometimes a negative generally it is more acceptable in forwards than backs .


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Analysis of the game from Murray Kinsella including a wee block by Darren Cave to help clear the way for Olding's try.

http://www.thescore.ie/analysis-ireland ... 4-Nov2014/

mikerob wrote:Analysis of the game from Murray Kinsella including a wee block by Darren Cave to help clear the way for Olding's try.

http://www.thescore.ie/analysis-ireland ... 4-Nov2014/

Have I not been saying since Sunday that Olding had to thank Dazza for his try

Shan it is basically difference between the Uafc and Munsterfans here we kick the sh1t out of our players such as Payne is worst 13 ever in an ulster jersey Diack is a hopeless back row NoC and Sugar are crap never in a month of Sundays would anyone on Munsterfans hack off a Munster player therefore at times there is a lack of reality to assessment of Munster players on occasions here we call a spide a spide and a spade a spade .


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MattMo wrote:

pythagoras wrote:

rumncoke wrote: Would anybody wish to identify the difference between an "offload" and a "pass" in my humble opinion the term "offload" is just a smartarsed bit of Sky commentary speak to sound knowledgable and or make the humble front row forward seem like a rugby player when he fumbles a ball into the hands of someone beside him.

Apparently an offload is a pass after you're tackled.
OK, I didn't know that until about 1 minute ago!

Offload is differentiated mostly because a "pass" could be anything from chucking the ball across to the full back when they've booted it down field, to trying to offload.
An "offload" needs to be differentiated, because the main point of running at a defender is often not to trundle over him, but to ensure he is busy tackling you when someone else has the ball, so if you ride the tackle and offload it to someone else, it can cause problems for the defence. Well timed passes are often put down as offloads as well, mostly when you get the "drawing the man" tactic being employed.
If you watch, Darren Cave is a master at this, it's why he has the highest offloading stats of most irish players, as well as pretty much setting up every try for Ulster for about 2 months last year.

Spot on.
In summary its a pass out of a tackle but love this tactic as done well its so effective.
The off load king is Sonny Bill Williams probably down to his league back ground, where it is seen more often than in union due to the open nature of the game by comparison.

Off loading sides are hard to defend against as it puts the attack behind the defence so therefore the defence is on the back foot and scrambling, exactly where an attacking team want them.
There is a risk to the off load as the ball is unprotected in a vunerable position so it is a high level skill to perform .

However the important thing is that the support players know its going to happen so they must support from deep in close proximatey allowing extra time for the player to commit the tackler and get the ball away.
Quite often the top players will off load blind as they know their support is going to be there and/or they have communicated with the off loading player.
In Ulster Darren Cave as said and Nick Williams are great off loaders but similary it requires players to read the off load like Bowe who has been one of the best around at doing just that.

On the opposite side, defences now generally go one low to tackle and one high to prevent the off load.
That why attackers will go out to isolate defenders who react by attempting a smother tackle, rather than the classic low tackle to prevent the off load.
And thats why you get people like Heaslip getting face pie when trying to do that to rampaging South African back rowers.

Love it when we talk technical.

MattMo wrote:If you watch, Darren Cave is a master at this, it's why he has the highest offloading stats of most irish players, as well as pretty much setting up every try for Ulster for about 2 months last year.

Could this be why he isn't Joe's favourite 13? I've heard it said that our Joe isn't a big fan of the off-load.

I think BOD did his fair share of off loading though.

I tend to see Joes sides as being fairly flexible and adaptable depending on the players he has at his disposal and the opposition.
For example the way the great Leinster side played is different from what we have seen from Ireland.

Leinster played a multi phased possession based game with players playing heads up without numbers on their back.
They had a back line and a pack of extremely high skill levels so the roles could be interchangeable.

With Ireland the roles are more defined with the emphasis on play being dictated through the more traditional means of the half backs as thats where our strength is.

Off loading is high risk so Joe probably would rather keep possession than risk losing the ball but Leinster would have been encouraged to do that more as the players were of the same culture.
In Ireland its a culmination of 4 different sides so he has come to a comprised style to suit the side.
We could see in the past how Leinster players especially Sexton, struggled to get to grips with DKs Munster style he imposed on the Irish team.

Of course there are common themes in Joes teams where he inspires commitment, intensity and belief in his sides, which any coach will tell you is half the battle.

Scranner wrote:

MattMo wrote:If you watch, Darren Cave is a master at this, it's why he has the highest offloading stats of most irish players, as well as pretty much setting up every try for Ulster for about 2 months last year.

Could this be why he isn't Joe's favourite 13? I've heard it said that our Joe isn't a big fan of the off-load.

I doubt Joe sees Cave offloading for Ulster and says "this is a categorically bad thing"; however, Ireland's limited use of the offload probably removes one of Cave's strengths when he's putting himself forward for selection.

rorybestsbigbaldnoggin wrote:

Scranner wrote:

MattMo wrote:If you watch, Darren Cave is a master at this, it's why he has the highest offloading stats of most irish players, as well as pretty much setting up every try for Ulster for about 2 months last year.

Could this be why he isn't Joe's favourite 13? I've heard it said that our Joe isn't a big fan of the off-load.

I doubt Joe sees Cave offloading for Ulster and says "this is a categorically bad thing"; however, Ireland's limited use of the offload probably removes one of Cave's strengths when he's putting himself forward for selection.

I'm thinking about the way that Trimble was encouraged to play the way Joe wanted him to. If Joe sees off-loading as a fundamental part of Cave's game and he isn't keen, then he isn't going to select him. Cave is too good for Schmidt to completely ignore him. I would imagine he has had the same sort of encouragement that Andy got - or not!

rumncoke wrote:Shan it is basically difference between the Uafc and Munsterfans here we kick the sh1t out of our players such as Payne is worst 13 ever in an ulster jersey Diack is a hopeless back row NoC and Sugar are crap never in a month of Sundays would anyone on Munsterfans hack off a Munster player therefore at times there is a lack of reality to assessment of Munster players on occasions here we call a spide a spide and a spade a spade .


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Comment edited-

Reacted to a post I should have known to ignore.

ruckover wrote:
Don't be so harsh on yourself, some of your stuff is semi-educated

Ballix.

Once a Knight wrote:

Your real mistake was reading it in the first place.

Though thou art but yet still a youngish man thou art quite full of wisdom old bean.


I have a way to go yet but luckily time is on my side.

bazzaj wrote:I think BOD did his fair share of off loading though.

I tend to see Joes sides as being fairly flexible and adaptable depending on the players he has at his disposal and the opposition.
For example the way the great Leinster side played is different from what we have seen from Ireland.

Leinster played a multi phased possession based game with players playing heads up without numbers on their back.
They had a back line and a pack of extremely high skill levels so the roles could be interchangeable.

With Ireland the roles are more defined with the emphasis on play being dictated through the more traditional means of the half backs as thats where our strength is.

Off loading is high risk so Joe probably would rather keep possession than risk losing the ball but Leinster would have been encouraged to do that more as the players were of the same culture.
In Ireland its a culmination of 4 different sides so he has come to a comprised style to suit the side.
We could see in the past how Leinster players especially Sexton, struggled to get to grips with DKs Munster style he imposed on the Irish team.

Of course there are common themes in Joes teams where he inspires commitment, intensity and belief in his sides, which any coach will tell you is half the battle.

Not a bad analysis but not strictly true IMO.

Leinster made off-loads, certainly, but they were high-percentage offloads not high risk and it took time for the players to 'earn' that right to make the decisions.

The reason, IMO, Leinster seemed so interchangeable or 'playing without numbers on their back' was down to the organisation and discipline Schmidt, and the rest of the coaching staff, instilled in the players. The roles of each player were made crystal clear and the emphasis was, and still is, on performing YOUR role correctly and to the best of your ability. It wasn't and isn't necessarily about making a lung bursting break it was and still is about the fine details. Supporting the ball carrier being Rule Number One.

It sounds simple but I don't think that many teams or coaches still down that deeply. Most coaches allow/encourage players to maximise their individual skills/talent but the outcomes in those instances are uncertain.

Situation-Payne, Ludik and Andrew all can play fullback for Ulster. Are the instructions/plan for each individual player the same regardless of who starts and do they all follow/buy in to that plan? IMO no. Do Ulster play the same way if Olding starts at 12 rather than McCloskey? Again probably not. Is the same expected if Diack plays at 6 than say Wilson? If Touhy is injured does his replacement perform the same role or is that responsibility transferred to say VDM with the replacement picking up the role VDM would perhaps ordinarily perform?

Schmidt's Leinster, and now Ireland, are incredibly disciplined and structured. With Leinster it was a little but more pretty because he had exceptional international class players playing at a level slightly below the very highest and thus were generally better man for man than many of their opponents. Ireland are less flair because, IMO, we cannot afford to be. Individually we are not necessarily better than our opponents but for Ireland the whole is greater than the sum of our parts and that is because we play low risk, well planned and well executed rugby.