Positives and Negatives: Ulster V Dragons

[John_e_boy]

to be honest, I thought Henderson's performance was immense! as was Trimble's.

Henderson for his attitude, strength and do-or-die attitude in everything he did.

Trimble for his carrying, physicality, running lines and defence.

I feel it would be churlish for me to bemoan an individual for a knock-on or missed pass. But as a team there were too many tonight. All over the park.

[John_e_boy]

please, come up with the petty stuff examples!

that's not a criticism, just trying to engage some opinion outside of my ref goggles!

Need to go through it again but first one that looked very dubious was first penalty against Chris.
He seemed to play advantage for too long before either blowing whistle or letting it run, Dragons advantage near the end was a prime example.

Aye, four/five phases after a knock on?

First one against Chris. Mmmmh. Second tackler? Hands away. On his feet. Dragons holding on. Penalty to Dragons.

the referee is the sole arbitrer of advantage.

advantage can be territory or possession.



To be honest, I thought it was a bone fide penalty and from memory, against Henderson for hands in the ruck? Or am i thinking of a different incident?

[BaggyTrousers]

by John_e_boy » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:37 pm

Positives:

- Henderson: immense

Henderson was a liability tonight, his youth and inexperience really showed up this evening.

Gave away 6 points in front of the sticks.

Made 2 carries of note ... knocked on at the end of one.

Fell off a couple of tackles.

and

Cocked up quick ball inside the Dragons 22 after the Marshall/Trimble break storming in at 1st receiver and trying to take a pass that was the perfect height and weight to float out to Ruan at 10.

Bar picking up Chavhanga and carrying him back he generally did look a little out of his depth.

Have to say I'd fall somewhere between those two, I suspect many will feel the same. Some good some not so good, and as Fuzzy rightly says a couple of dumb pens.

[Rooster]

Need to go through it again but first one that looked very dubious was first penalty against Chris.
He seemed to play advantage for too long before either blowing whistle or letting it run, Dragons advantage near the end was a prime example.

Aye, four/five phases after a knock on?

First one against Chris. Mmmmh. Second tackler? Hands away. On his feet. Dragons holding on. Penalty to Dragons.

the referee is the sole arbitrer of advantage.

advantage can be territory or possession.



To be honest, I thought it was a bone fide penalty and from memory, against Henderson for hands in the ruck? Or am i thinking of a different incident?

First one was fine as you describe, Hendy flicked ball back when lying on ground, was second one or first for Chris whatever way you want to put it as LKOTP describes.
Scrum time was a mess as usual

[Dave]

Henderson was immense fuzzy. He was aggressive and powerful in contact. He stopped players and drove them back on a few occaisons. He had couple of big carries as well, bumping off tackles. Totally ridiculous to say he was out of his depth because of a few errors in an error ridden game. Pienaar and Bowe out of their depth too? Try watching the game with your eyes open this time
He didn't fall off any tackles either. Needless negativity about a player who stood out this evening.

[fuzzylogic]

by Dave » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:09 pm

Henderson was immense fuzzy. He was aggressive and powerful in contact. He stopped players and drove them back on a few occaisons. He had couple of big carries as well, bumping off tackles. Totally ridiculous to say he was out of his depth because of a few errors in an error ridden game. Pienaar and Bowe out of their depth too? Try watching the game with your eyes open this time
He didn't fall off any tackles either. Needless negativity about a player who stood out this evening.

NO ONE on that pitch was immense tonight. Collectively we were poor, individually we were poor.

He had 2 good carries, and knocked on at the end of one like I already said.

He lost his head on several occasions. A rush of blood to the head gifted the Dragons the opening 3 points, he gifted them another 3 later in the half and he cocked up a potential try rushing in at first receiver.

These brain farts are classic signs of a player who is out of his depth and trying too hard to look good.

Tommy and Jared make mistakes sure, they are seasoned player's who know when things are on and when they arnt. Its the execution that let them down, not over eagerness.

My negativity is a direct response to the standard UAFC over hype of an Ulster player.

The boy played well, but 'immense' he was not.

[John_e_boy]

I'm genuinely interested in how you guys watch and assess the game as we watch it. And by that I'm presuming not at the game itself.

Whilst I agree that we can argue til the cows come haim about particular incidents, esepcially with video replays and all, how do you guys look at a game?

When I watch a breakdown on TV, I see a myriad of infringements but in general I think I can see the flow of a game and try my best to let it flow, technical infringements nonetheless.

[Nightsoil]

NO ONE on that pitch was immense tonight. Collectively we were poor, individually we were poor.

...
My negativity is a direct response to the standard UAFC over hype of an Ulster player.

The boy played well, but 'immense' he was not.

If people are overhyping, you are most definitely doing the opposite.

That was not a poor performance as a team, no single individual played poorly and several played very well indeed. In particular, Trimble looks back to near his best and Stevenson is just an absolute brute. Yes, there were a ridiculous amount of errors to counterbalance the frequent moments of brilliance, but still an average to good performance. How many other teams would have put 6 tries on Newport in Rodney Parade?

edit: There's setting a high standard for ourselves, and there's expecting unrealistic perfection, which I don't think does anyone any favours.

[Bart S]

Interestingly (and credit to Maaark and co for this with the results they have achieved) I think Ulster have reached a stage where certain teams are starting to look at games against us (esp at Ravers, but also for some teams at their own grounds) as ones which they are not necessarily going to tagret for a win. This is on the basis that you don't line up your top team for every game but do so for the ones you are really targetting (or at least close to the top team).

I'm not convinced the Dragons sent out a side tonight who really thought could beat us. Would that have happened even a year ago? I doubt it. Suspect they are targetting their upcoming games during the AI's. Will be interested to see what sort of side Embra put out against us even if their internationals players are missing.

For some teams it's definitely about targetting certain games and Ulster are now presenting the kind of powerfulo opposition where they are thinking twice about whether to really go for it against us, or save their big guns for the following week. Of course I'm not talking about the likes of Leinster,Munster and the Ospreys here, but some of the others.

[John_e_boy]

Proms,

I reallly would love to take this discussion further. I am genuinely interested in the value of replays to (re)assess a game.

May I humbly ask if there is a medium to provide some kind of video replay analysis of key decisions according to your excellent assessment of the game?

Really aul han, as a ref in lower leagues I would dearly love the opportunity to assess a high level game with the aid of TV cameras and our wonderful input!

[Bart S]

NO ONE on that pitch was immense tonight. Collectively we were poor, individually we were poor.

...
My negativity is a direct response to the standard UAFC over hype of an Ulster player.

The boy played well, but 'immense' he was not.

If people are overhyping, you are most definitely doing the opposite.

That was not a poor performance as a team, no single individual played poorly and several played very well indeed. In particular, Trimble looks back to near his best and Stevenson is just an absolute brute. Yes, there were a ridiculous amount of errors to counterbalance the frequent moments of brilliance, but still a good performance. How many other teams would have put 6 tries on Newport in Rodney Parade?

I ake your point Nightsoil and the results this season speak volumes. I'd also add that if we keep winning and scoring tries like that then yes, it seems a bit absurd to be critical of the performance.

Where I think Fuzzy has a point is whether that kind of performance (and in particular the very high error count in both our own 22 when defending and the opposition 22 when attacking) would be costly at Franklins Gardens or in the Rabo at Thomond or the RDS. It's great we scored 6 tries but we had numerous chances and we won't get as many battling against the Saints pack. Equally, if we do get opportunities against them and take them, we can't afford to let the oppo straight back in with a couple of pens like we did for around 55 mins of the game tonight.

Don't get me wrong, overall I'm delighted with the way things have gone this season and even tonight, but I still think playing at Franklin Gardens will be a world away from this and the Saints pack will ensure that we got nowhere near as much ball as we had tonight and a far smaller number of chances will have to be executd more clinicially.

However, there's plenty of time to dwell on that later!

[John_e_boy]

I'm not worried about the Saints.

I worry about Toulouse, Toulon, Leinster and Saffacens these days.

[Bart S]

On Henderson, I thought he did pretty well.

Positiives - young, fearless, dynamic and very talented.

Negatives - naive, but he's only a young lad.

Great prospect and needs to be encouraged.

HOWEVER, as I said after the Glasgow game, the first name I'll be looking/praying for on the teamsheet at Franklin Gardens will be a certain Stephen Ferris. Really believe that 1F will be absolutely critical to our chances of winning there.

[shamalicious]

For those who didn't like TC's try celebration, he's just apologised on twitter for getting carried away.

[Nightsoil]

Dragons had 14 men out injured, gonna guess that was about as strong a team as they could field.

Bart - All true, and I apologise and correct myself I came across as saying there was no need to be critical; just not be overcritical.

I'm looking forwards to Northampton and the month of December a lot, things haven't exactly been easy this season but that's when we get to see the absolute top end stuff that will tell us whether this team has the ability to conquer the big knock-out games and bring home silverware. I think we can, and that our high-tempo high-risk game can put holes in anyone and that we have the ability to adapt to what's needed, but it would be nice to see proof.