Looks like Tommy isn't coming back to us....

[namron]

When Tommy left it was during the O Sullivan fifedom at the irfu .He was told that he needed to " go discover himself after an average performance and left out to dry so is it any wonder he left for greener pastures at that time .Neil Best was consistently overlooked by him also and to a lesser extent Wilson .i dont think munster supporters would take it too well if these fine players wore the red shirt and ended up over the channel

[Lurgan Lad]

If I was Tommy out of Ulster, Munster and Leinster Ulster would be my third choice. For the best players to continue to improve their game they need to be playing with the best and against the best, they need to be playing in the big games in the Heineken Cup. Between Leinster & Munster I would probably choose Leinster solely because O'Gara seems to be on the wain and Sexton appears to be the future.

[Shan]

When Tommy left it was during the O Sullivan fifedom at the irfu .He was told that he needed to " go discover himself after an average performance and left out to dry so is it any wonder he left for greener pastures at that time .Neil Best was consistently overlooked by him also and to a lesser extent Wilson .i dont think munster supporters would take it too well if these fine players wore the red shirt and ended up over the channel

I'm not sure if those rolleyes are directed at me and if they are I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make.What I would say is that if some people wish to play the ostrich that is fine but if these players left Ulster because of Eddie O then I'd have concerns about them.Eddie was not the Ulster coach and he had no influence in the Ulster team selection and tactics, except when it came to stopping players in the international squad taking part in certain games and even that was an IRFU dictat rather than Eddie.

I'd much rather think it was because they felt they weren't moving their careers forward at that time by staying with Ulster.If Munster players left because they felt Munster had stagnated to the point that it was hindering their development and consequently their international ambitions of course I wouldn't be jumping for joy.It wouldn't be because of the individuals though.It would be because I'd be concerned about the overall state of Munster rugby.As I said earlier Ulster are looking like they are in a much better position now to a couple of years ago and if I was an Ulster supporter that is what I would be focusing on.Continuing the improvement and achieving consistent high standards of performance and results is the best way to keep your best players and to attract others that you wish to have.

[Lurgan Lad]

When Tommy left it was during the O Sullivan fifedom at the irfu .He was told that he needed to " go discover himself after an average performance and left out to dry so is it any wonder he left for greener pastures at that time .Neil Best was consistently overlooked by him also and to a lesser extent Wilson .i dont think munster supporters would take it too well if these fine players wore the red shirt and ended up over the channel

I'm not sure if those rolleyes are directed at me and if they are I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make.What I would say is that if some people wish to play the ostrich that is fine but if these players left Ulster because of Eddie O then I'd have concerns about them.Eddie was not the Ulster coach and he had no influence in the Ulster team selection and tactics, except when it came to stopping players in the international squad taking part in certain games and even that was an IRFU dictat rather than Eddie.

I'd much rather think it was because they felt they weren't moving their careers forward at that time by staying with Ulster.If Munster players left because they felt Munster had stagnated to the point that it was hindering their development and consequently their international ambitions of course I wouldn't be jumping for joy.It wouldn't be because of the individuals though.It would be because I'd be concerned about the overall state of Munster rugby.As I said earlier Ulster are looking like they are in a much better position now to a couple of years ago and if I was an Ulster supporter that is what I would be focusing on.Continuing the improvement and achieving consistent high standards of performance and results is the best way to keep your best players and to attract others that you wish to have.

Don't really think Best and Wilson were overlooked too much, both at their peak were good players but I would never have considered either as deserving automatic selection for Ireland. Back row is often a very competitive position and I think both earned roughly the amount of caps that their abilities and form deserved. Ulster's biggest challenge to get more players into the Ireland team is to be consistently playing at a higher level and getting through the group stages of the Heiny each year. If I was Ireland coach and I had to choose between two players of similar ability and form I would always choose the one on the more successful team, they will have faced more big match occasions and faced better players more frequently.

[Shan]

I can understand players going from one club to another when contract improvements (ie money) are on the table. I can understand going to another club to get on the first teamsheet when you've been a sub and i can firmly understand the draw of moving abroad to sample another culture, style of play, better weather you name it....... fully understandable.

Ah yes the delights of Wales are a huge attraction with their sandy beaches and tropical climate.

But rugby in Ireland isn't that simple and many snakes lurk in the grass.

Interesting statement.Can you explain what you mean without having to get into specifics such as naming and shaming.

I am a fervent supporter of the rugby model on our wee island: IRFU paymasters and call the shots, 4 'clubs' there for the good of the nation first, central contracts. So if Tommy were to return to Ireland, I can only imagine he'd get the same contract whether he was playing for Munster, Leinster or Ulster (sorry to discount Connacht but they are treated like the poor second cousins by the IRFU, shameful).

Not all central contracted players earn the same salary and I agree with you about Connacht.I've said many times it is a perfect resource that should be utilised to the full rather than having people on full contracts ar$ing about the other three provinces hardly getting any game time.

So why would a true Ulsterman even entertain the notion of not rejoining Ulster? It's a pretty cossetted world these Irish elite players live in (and I don't mean that in a negative sense): I would think the passion of representing your own province is the one last factor needed to influence where you actually play your provincial rugby at home?

This is not West Side Story and it is OK to play for a team outside one's own region.Passion is an overused word and I'd prefer a class player of Tommy Bowe's standing would be capable of putting everything into his off and on field performance regardless of which club/provinvce he plays for.Nothing he has done thus far makes me believe he can't do this.One thing I will grant is that the majority of people have a love of being home but professional sportspeople just like high ranking business men/women cannot allow this to affect their focus, desire and commitment.

[Shan]

Don't really think Best and Wilson were overlooked too much, both at their peak were good players but I would never have considered either as deserving automatic selection for Ireland. Back row is often a very competitive position and I think both earned roughly the amount of caps that their abilities and form deserved. Ulster's biggest challenge to get more players into the Ireland team is to be consistently playing at a higher level and getting through the group stages of the Heiny each year. If I was Ireland coach and I had to choose between two players of similar ability and form I would always choose the one on the more successful team, they will have faced more big match occasions and faced better players more frequently.

I'd pretty much agree with you but I always liked Neil Best as a player.I think he usually performed very well for Ireland when he got his chances.

[John_e_boy]

Ah yes the delights of Wales are a huge attraction with their sandy beaches and tropical climate.

actually it was a general hint about the exodus to france...........but indeed, the Welsh riviera..... who wouldn't!

But rugby in Ireland isn't that simple and many snakes lurk in the grass.

Interesting statement.Can you explain what you mean without having to get into specifics such as naming and shaming.

what i meant was where the RFU have their 57 old farts and the WRU have the school of 1973, the IRFU has a central contracting system that is built against rewarding form, but very geared towards player development. No club vs country row but if a player has a strong first half of a season, the earliest he'll get into the irish scene is the following summer tour. Where's the reward for a storming run of form?

Not all central contracted players earn the same salary and I agree with you about Connacht.I've said many times it is a perfect resource that should be utilised to the full rather than having people on full contracts ar$ing about the other three provinces hardly getting any game time.

true, but my point was Tommy's renegotiated IRFU contract would be the same value whether he played in red, blue, white or green.

So why would a true Ulsterman even entertain the notion of not rejoining Ulster? It's a pretty cossetted world these Irish elite players live in (and I don't mean that in a negative sense): I would think the passion of representing your own province is the one last factor needed to influence where you actually play your provincial rugby at home?

This is not West Side Story and it is OK to play for a team outside one's own region.Passion is an overused word and I'd prefer a class player of Tommy Bowe's standing would be capable of putting everything into his off and on field performance regardless of which club/provinvce he plays for.Nothing he has done thus far makes me believe he can't do this.One thing I will grant is that the majority of people have a love of being home but professional sportspeople just like high ranking business men/women cannot allow this to affect their focus, desire and commitment.

my point would be: you can't compare something like a football or NFL contract to the Irish rugby situation. If you have clubs operating their own agenda then sure, the money counts. But players who represent Ireland fall under the IRFU central contracting system - it's not a level playing field and it is a field that truly does give scope for a bit of home-grown passion. If you knew you would earn the same in dublin, limerick or belfast: what would your choice be?

[Big-al]

Ah yes the delights of Wales are a huge attraction with their sandy beaches and tropical climate.

actually it was a general hint about the exodus to france...........but indeed, the Welsh riviera..... who wouldn't!

But rugby in Ireland isn't that simple and many snakes lurk in the grass.

Interesting statement.Can you explain what you mean without having to get into specifics such as naming and shaming.

what i meant was where the RFU have their 57 old farts and the WRU have the school of 1973, the IRFU has a central contracting system that is built against rewarding form, but very geared towards player development. No club vs country row but if a player has a strong first half of a season, the earliest he'll get into the irish scene is the following summer tour. Where's the reward for a storming run of form?

Not all central contracted players earn the same salary and I agree with you about Connacht.I've said many times it is a perfect resource that should be utilised to the full rather than having people on full contracts ar$ing about the other three provinces hardly getting any game time.

true, but my point was Tommy's renegotiated IRFU contract would be the same value whether he played in red, blue, white or green.

So why would a true Ulsterman even entertain the notion of not rejoining Ulster? It's a pretty cossetted world these Irish elite players live in (and I don't mean that in a negative sense): I would think the passion of representing your own province is the one last factor needed to influence where you actually play your provincial rugby at home?

This is not West Side Story and it is OK to play for a team outside one's own region.Passion is an overused word and I'd prefer a class player of Tommy Bowe's standing would be capable of putting everything into his off and on field performance regardless of which club/provinvce he plays for.Nothing he has done thus far makes me believe he can't do this.One thing I will grant is that the majority of people have a love of being home but professional sportspeople just like high ranking business men/women cannot allow this to affect their focus, desire and commitment.

my point would be: you can't compare something like a football or NFL contract to the Irish rugby situation. If you have clubs operating their own agenda then sure, the money counts. But players who represent Ireland fall under the IRFU central contracting system - it's not a level playing field and it is a field that truly does give scope for a bit of home-grown passion. If you knew you would earn the same in dublin, limerick or belfast: what would your choice be?

Fair point but you have to ask youself, if Cave and Humphreys for example got capped last season would they have the same desire to work as hard to get into the squad. I firmly beleive Kidney is making it hard to get into the Irish squad for a reason. He wants the player to earn the right to get into the squad.

On the other hand you look at Keith Earls last season and Jonny Sexton, it didn't take them to long to get picked

[John_e_boy]

Fair point but you have to ask youself, if Cave and Humphreys for example got capped last season would they have the same desire to work as hard to get into the squad. I firmly beleive Kidney is making it hard to get into the Irish squad for a reason. He wants the player to earn the right to get into the squad.

I think we're in danger of getting a wee bit off subject here, so I'd just like to qualify where I'm coming from. My points are made purely in the context of Tommy Bowe coming back home but not in a white shirt!

On the other hand you look at Keith Earls last season and Jonny Sexton, it didn't take them to long to get picked[

as much as i think that that Sexton has it in him to take Ireland beyond the golden generation, Lions berth for wee Keith? Catch yerself on aul han!

[Shan]

what i meant was where the RFU have their 57 old farts and the WRU have the school of 1973, the IRFU has a central contracting system that is built against rewarding form, but very geared towards player development. No club vs country row but if a player has a strong first half of a season, the earliest he'll get into the irish scene is the following summer tour. Where's the reward for a storming run of form?

Do you mean where is the reward for non central contracted players? I would have thought the reward ultimately would be a contract.Surely that is the best reward possible.How many non contracted players have been affected by this? I can't think of any.I'm not sure how this coincides with your "snakes in the grass" comment.

true, but my point was Tommy's renegotiated IRFU contract would be the same value whether he played in red, blue, white or green.

I'll admit I'm not an expert on the contractual side of things but isn't there a provincial as well as Ireland contract? If there is some provinces may be able to offer more than others.

my point would be: you can't compare something like a football or NFL contract to the Irish rugby situation. If you have clubs operating their own agenda then sure, the money counts. But players who represent Ireland fall under the IRFU central contracting system - it's not a level playing field and it is a field that truly does give scope for a bit of home-grown passion. If you knew you would earn the same in dublin, limerick or belfast: what would your choice be?

Going on the assumption that a player would earn the same anywhere I'd choose Cork---what a great place

Seriously I'd expect am ambitious player to go where they believe most on field success is going to happen.If you look coldly and objectively at the provinces, their current standard of play, strength and depth of squad and their plans and work-in-progress for developing the next line of players then your decision can be one based on trying to be the best you can and getting the best circumstances possible for success.

[Fly Half]

Tommy will come back to Ulster.

1. The O's will probably struggle to afford him for his third year at the same rate as the first two.
2. The IRFU want to spread the playing resources between the provinces. It increases the international options and lessens the international impact on provincial performance.
3. The IRFU will find it easier to keep Trimble and Ferris if Bowe goes to Ulster.
4. He will earn more in endorsements in Ulster as he will be the big fish rather than just another one in an already overcrowded pond.
5. Kidney doesn't pick provincial combinations but the best individual players, so it doesn't matter who he plays with every week.
6. Tommy has maintained close friendships with current Ulster players, and this is important to him.
7. He still harbours a desire to play full back and Ulster provides the best option to play there.
8. Leinster don't need him
9. Munster's style of play won't suit him. Unless ROG retires anytime soon they are still most effective playing a forwards game. They also don't need him with two top class centres, a top class FB and two promising understudys, and their wings never see the ball.
10. Tommy wants to play for Ulster. i.e. He wants to make a difference to the province that brought him to the international spotlight. How much respect does one earn by jumping on the winning team bandwagon? How prized is Brian Carney's HC medal?

There are some who seem to think that sport is solely about winning. What about all those teams who 99% of the time win nothing? After 60 years of trying, should Ireland have given up on winning the GS as a bad job? Maybe Tommy should have tried to repatriate himself? Tommy will earn as much at Ulster as anywhere else, and he has a chance to make a difference to the province he cares about. The negotiations will indeed be protracted but a move anywhere else but Ulster just doesn't make sense.

[bogboy]

Earls rose rapidly not because his game was that much better than some ---- but if you watch him play he is all attitude much more so than Fitzgerald.

N.Best had it as well until his game became tunnel visioned and his ears closed .

[Rooster]

Should change the title of the post slightly I think, n't needs removing.

[Shan]

Earls rose rapidly not because his game was that much better than some ---- but if you watch him play he is all attitude much more so than Fitzgerald.

Not sure about that.Earls, from a very young age, showed real class and as a teenager was considered to be the best thing since BOD.Now he hasn't fully realised that yet as a senior player but maybe if he is given an opportunity to concentrate on one position it can come.Agree about his attitude alright.

Check out this from my old school Munchins beating one of our heartbreakers PBC(ba$tards always beat us when I was in the school) in the Munster Schools Senior Cup Final in 2006.Check out the moves from Earls around the 1:40 mark and the try about the 2:25 mark.Class stuff indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oCOLYezvqc

[bigchiefally]

As a person Bowe is obviously free to do whatever he wants, he is a professional athlete with around 10 years to make his money, have fun and win as much as he can. From that point of view I can understand he weighs all this up and then does whatever he wants. That makes logical sense.

However the reason we stand freezing ourself to death, occasionally getting drenched, whilst sometimes watching appalling rugby is not logical. It is a bizarre emotional attachment we have to our team. These emotions can occasionally lead to stupid statements like I made earlier about him no longer being an Ulsterman. They also explain why even if we can see certain sporting and financial logic in a move to say Leinster or Munster our personal affection for him can easily go out the window if we see him rejecting us and lining up for our nearest and biggest rivals.