Aviva Stadium in Dublin to host 2013 Heineken Cup final

[bootlaced]

archipelago

[mikerob]

The conservative chappies of the IRFU are getting bitten on the ass already for their gross stupidity. Ireland could and should have had a facility like Twickenham. Plenty of room for 80k seater, car parks for a champions village and shockingly parking cars and coaches. But the blazers have their parking sorted so they are OK.

Sniper, the blazers based their business model on the international side. 51,700 capacity is about right to watch Ireland (particularly the way it is being managed and coached at present). What they did not reckon upon was the development of the provincial teams. These teams, despite the blazers efforts to micro-manage squads, now clearly out-perform the national side. Supporters are slowly but surely moving allegiance away from the national side to their provincial side. You just have to look at the underwhelming reaction to the Irish squad announcement for the All Blacks Butcher's Bill tour. The main concern is not how the Ulster contingent perform but who will be left standing on the return flight.

As Sir Prom rightly predicts, the problem is that the Aviva is just not big enough to hold a major final. In fact it could not hold an ERC quarter or semi between two Irish sides. To keep the final on our shores we may have to go cap in hand to the GAA again!

You need to look at the cold hard facts of how a 80,000 stadium would be paid for, however.

How many guaranteed sell-outs would there be? Well, the England and France 6N games would likely sell it out, but that is 2 games every two years. Maybe an AI against NZ, but that is another 1 game every 3-4 years.

An ERC final? Well they are rotated amongst all the participant countries, and it seems likely Italy will be added to the list, so that is 1 game every 6 years. Also the IRFU don't get the gate money for an ERC final, the ERC do.

A SF home fixture involving a province in the HEC? How many of those can you guarantee in the next 5 years? And again, the ERC get the gate money.

The reality is that a smaller stadium does create scarcity value for tickets, that means people will pay up front in cash for 10 year debentures. That won't happen to the same extent with a larger stadium as a lot of people will assume they will always be able to get a ticket so the ability to fill the stadium is left to how well the Ireland team is doing. And can you guarantee that?

So can a 80,000 stadium be paid for by about 5-6 guaranteed sell-out games over a typical 5 year period? With all other games being a lot less than capacity?

The opportunities to regularly fill Twickenham are simply much more than the Aviva. The finals of the Pro12 and AP are next weekend. The AP final will have a capacity 80k crowd in Twickenham. Leinster v Ospreys wouldn't fill the Aviva, let alone an 80k stadium.

[big mervyn]

Is there a possibility of more seats at the greenhouse end?

[mikerob]

Is there a possibility of more seats at the greenhouse end?

I've heard it said (with no evidence) that the IRFU have been buying up the houses at that end as they come on sale, so when they own the lot, there won't be any more residents objections to building up that end!

[stickinout]

Is there a possibility of more seats at the greenhouse end?

I've heard it said (with no evidence) that the IRFU have been buying up the houses at that end as they come on sale, so when they own the lot, there won't be any more residents objections to building up that end!

In the meantime, could the IRFU not come to some agreement with the GAA and make croker available for ERC finals?

Congrats on making it to 7001 MR

[mikerob]

Is there a possibility of more seats at the greenhouse end?

I've heard it said (with no evidence) that the IRFU have been buying up the houses at that end as they come on sale, so when they own the lot, there won't be any more residents objections to building up that end!

In the meantime, could the IRFU not come to some agreement with the GAA and make croker available for ERC finals?

Congrats on making it to 7001 MR

Picking a venue is a matter for the ERC, not the IRFU, although both organisations are close, given the ERC is actually based in Dublin . Making Croke available is up to the GAA. Not being a GAA follower, I don't know what their position would be on opening up Croke given no Irish teams may be involved in an ERC final.

The thing about the ERC final in the Aviva is that the scarcity value of tickets + Irish provincial success means that the ERC will have sold loads of tickets a year in advance, and they may be happy to have this cash in the bank. ERC finals always have a risk of being all-French finals outside France and traditionally these aren't well attended.

[stickinout]

Sorry not awake yet MR, of course it's the ERC who decide the final. Yeah, it's a risky one alright as to whether or not it would be filled if it was 2 french teams in the final. But the same could be said of twickenham too? Though i accept it's a bit easier to get to if you're French.

I still think the momentum of the Final as a celebration for all is growing and there's many other club fans who wouldn't pass up a jolly in dublin. I just don't like the idea that the ERC might pass over Lansdowne in the future due to its small capacity.

[Rooster]

Just thinking, the total ticket revenue in the Aviva may not actually be much different to Twickers when you count a higher percentage of top price tickets and then factor in that 20% of ticket price in Twickers went to HMRC in the form of VAT while sports events are VAT exempt unless it has changed in ROI ?

[stickinout]

Sport events are VAT exempt in the ROI? Is that true? I never knew that.

[Rooster]

Sport events are VAT exempt in the ROI? Is that true? I never knew that.

I heard that from a GAA committee man hence the reason the Ulster final is held in Clones and not shared around to Casement or anywhere in NI, it might be horlix hence I asked the question


All I can find on it and it looks like that is the case ?
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/ ... -02364.jsp

[stickinout]

Sport events are VAT exempt in the ROI? Is that true? I never knew that.

I heard that from a GAA committee man hence the reason the Ulster final is held in Clones and not shared around to Casement or anywhere in NI, it might be horlix hence I asked the question

Rooster,
I thought the VAT take was lower in the ROI and that's why the Ulster final was in Clones. You could be right though, would be interesting to find the answer.

[cables]

Info from http://www.revenue.ie accessed today.

Exemptions under Section 235 Taxes Consolidation Act.

I did not check if this is 'total' or partial exemption.
Listed are:

GAA Croke Park
Celtic Rugby
IRFU
IRB
ERC
RWC
Leinster
A considerable list of both GAA and Rugby clubs and other sporting bodies
Host Rugby Union Limited (?)

[Snipe Watson]

.

[Snipe Watson]

The conservative chappies of the IRFU are getting bitten on the ass already for their gross stupidity. Ireland could and should have had a facility like Twickenham. Plenty of room for 80k seater, car parks for a champions village and shockingly parking cars and coaches. But the blazers have their parking sorted so they are OK.

Sniper, the blazers based their business model on the international side. 51,700 capacity is about right to watch Ireland (particularly the way it is being managed and coached at present). What they did not reckon upon was the development of the provincial teams. These teams, despite the blazers efforts to micro-manage squads, now clearly out-perform the national side. Supporters are slowly but surely moving allegiance away from the national side to their provincial side. You just have to look at the underwhelming reaction to the Irish squad announcement for the All Blacks Butcher's Bill tour. The main concern is not how the Ulster contingent perform but who will be left standing on the return flight.

As Sir Prom rightly predicts, the problem is that the Aviva is just not big enough to hold a major final. In fact it could not hold an ERC quarter or semi between two Irish sides. To keep the final on our shores we may have to go cap in hand to the GAA again!

You need to look at the cold hard facts of how a 80,000 stadium would be paid for, however.
How many guaranteed sell-outs would there be? Well, the England and France 6N games would likely sell it out, but that is 2 games every two years. Maybe an AI against NZ, but that is another 1 game every 3-4 years.

An ERC final? Well they are rotated amongst all the participant countries, and it seems likely Italy will be added to the list, so that is 1 game every 6 years. Also the IRFU don't get the gate money for an ERC final, the ERC do.

A SF home fixture involving a province in the HEC? How many of those can you guarantee in the next 5 years? And again, the ERC get the gate money.

The reality is that a smaller stadium does create scarcity value for tickets, that means people will pay up front in cash for 10 year debentures. That won't happen to the same extent with a larger stadium as a lot of people will assume they will always be able to get a ticket so the ability to fill the stadium is left to how well the Ireland team is doing. And can you guarantee that?

So can a 80,000 stadium be paid for by about 5-6 guaranteed sell-out games over a typical 5 year period? With all other games being a lot less than capacity?

The opportunities to regularly fill Twickenham are simply much more than the Aviva. The finals of the Pro12 and AP are next weekend. The AP final will have a capacity 80k crowd in Twickenham. Leinster v Ospreys wouldn't fill the Aviva, let alone an 80k stadium.

From what I have been told, an 80k stadium in Pheonix park could have been built for similar or even less money than the current stadium. All the constraints and errors made in the design process made this one very costly stadium and you still can't get tickets for the big matches.

[mikerob]

From what I have been told, an 80k stadium in Pheonix park could have been built for similar or even less money than the current stadium. All the constraints and errors made in the design process made this one very costly stadium and you still can't get tickets for the big matches.

I don't recall Phoenix Park ever being a serious candidate - there was land owned by the IRFU in the outskirts of Dublin and redevelopment of industrial land (glass bottle plant) nearer in.

The former would have been Dublin's equivalent of the Maze - an out-of-town stadium at the end of minimal infrastructure and the latter would have meant acquiring land at the peak of Ireland's property bubble.

You have proved my point by saying that you still can't get tickets for big matches. The IRFU have been financially conservative, some would say cynical, by using a smaller stadium to create scarcity value and that drives sales of 10 year debentures and they get the cash up front for those. A larger stadium means less scarcity value and you are a hostage to the fortunes of the team if people actually want to buy tickets or not. Would you want to rely on performances of the Ireland team over the next 5 years to pay your mortgage or would you rather have a chunk of cash now, thank you very much.

Forget about hosting ERC games as a justification. The ERC get the gate money for those and renting out the stadium is just icing on the cake.