Are we headed for dark times??

[BR]

Assuming a playing career of 8-10 years, that means that the Academy needs to produce 3-4 first team players per year of which one needs to be international quality.

You won't get 8 - 10 years out of a player in modern professional rugby. The sport is unsustainable. Those teams which artificially limit their catchment pool will be the first to go to the wall.

[LegsLikeSausages]

Assuming a playing career of 8-10 years, that means that the Academy needs to produce 3-4 first team players per year of which one needs to be international quality.

You won't get 8 - 10 years out of a player in modern professional rugby. The sport is unsustainable. Those teams which artificially limit their catchment pool will be the first to go to the wall.

I was being generous for the sake of arguing a minimum requirement. I agree with you.

[Nightsoil]

I don't think we're heading for any darker times than Ulster's mostly been of recent years or than exist at most other professional rugby organisations. I mean, if things are dark at Ulster, than what are they at Dragons? Maybe I'm over-optimistic, but we got into the play-offs last year and I reckon we'll be there or there abouts again. I know that's not hugely exciting, particularly when we don't really look like getting any trophies from it, but always with a real shot at the play-offs is better than we were when I started supporting Ulster and better than many places.

Things are only really dark in the sense that Ulster Rugby could be a real powerhouse and that this is not happening, despite a set of loud utterances about how it was coming and some promising signs on the pitch, and that it looks set not to continue. I sometimes feel people here overreact a bit due to disappointment over that.

That's not an endorsement on how things are going. The non-rugby part of the operation seems utterly tone-deaf to what people want, those running the rugby parts of it look short of what we want, the playing staff is short of quality, depth and maybe professionalism as well, the academy seemingly can't produce a forward unless you give them a genetic freak... am I missing anything here?

Yet half the league would consider themselves doing quite nicely to be in our shoes.

[BaggyTrousers]

Dark days for me, I went to the doctor today and the conversation was as follows:

Dr: well Dave, are you following the diet? You don't look any slimmer.

Me: not doing too well doc

Dr: tell me what you had for breakfast.

Me: 4 eggs

Dr: scrambled?

Me: nah, cadburys

He wasn't happy.

[Kofi Annan]

It was very dark times when I had insomnia.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Am I getting this right, we have two good signings, so all will be okay

And therein lies the problem.

With a NIQ quota of 4 players plus a project, the remaining 30+ players in the squad need to be either home grown or IQ foreigners (seems very rare to find decent quality IQ foreigners). In times of need, Leinster and Munster have both pilfered from Connacht, but we don't seem to have that ability.

Assuming a playing career of 8-10 years, that means that the Academy needs to produce 3-4 first team players per year of which one needs to be international quality. Furthermore, we need to produce these players across all positions, not just produce a load of wingers for 3 years, then a load of centres for the next 3. Clearly we desperately need back row forwards coming through now but can anyone remember the last truly international quality scrum half produced by an Ulster school? I'm scratching my head to think of anyone more recent than Colin Patterson (with an honourable mention to Andy Matchett).

So when is this much lauded academy going to start delivering the goods?

Rob Saunders....

I think of him as a London Irish player. What school did he go to? (I genuinely don't know).

BRA. Played against him. He played for Ulster schools I think in fifth year. Too much too soon though. Best pass I ve ever seen, but captain of Ireland from start was madness. Baggy correct, Patterson best Ulster scrummie ever. Such a lost talent, like Carr.

[Bayern]

I said before I was speaking to the father of a young lad coming through the schools here and getting into the Academy he was hopeful that his son could make it one day. Then his son was dumped because he didn't hit the matrix set down by UR for muscle build/shape/physic whatever you want to call it. From what I understand a skilful player with good handling skills/ball control and able to offload now dumped in the rugby wasteland at a tender age and deemed useless to Ulster. The lad is likely to give up and concentrate on his academic side and good luck to him for I suspect that if not him one or two others like him may be to Ulster's loss. It appears that size is everything and ball skills nothing.

Where to start with this..

What position does he play?
Is he a good athlete?
What size is he?

Ulster haven't shown any reluctance in promoting smaller players - Olding and Jackson being obvious small players for Ulster.

So without knowing more, I doubt Ulster are purposely ignoring talented rugby players because they lack size.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

I said before I was speaking to the father of a young lad coming through the schools here and getting into the Academy he was hopeful that his son could make it one day. Then his son was dumped because he didn't hit the matrix set down by UR for muscle build/shape/physic whatever you want to call it. From what I understand a skilful player with good handling skills/ball control and able to offload now dumped in the rugby wasteland at a tender age and deemed useless to Ulster. The lad is likely to give up and concentrate on his academic side and good luck to him for I suspect that if not him one or two others like him may be to Ulster's loss. It appears that size is everything and ball skills nothing.

Where to start with this..

What position does he play?
Is he a good athlete?
What size is he?

Ulster haven't shown any reluctance in promoting smaller players - Olding and Jackson being obvious small players for Ulster.

So without knowing more, I doubt Ulster are purposely ignoring talented rugby players because they lack size.

Of course they are - the player's father said so ....... apparently

[Kofi Annan]

Why was josh Atkinson binned?

[Bayern]

Why was josh Atkinson binned?

no reason was given officially.. could be various factors including lack of size

[Wee Woman]

I hate this cryptic sh1t

[BuckRogers]

I don't think we're heading for any darker times than Ulster's mostly been of recent years or than exist at most other professional rugby organisations. I mean, if things are dark at Ulster, than what are they at Dragons? Maybe I'm over-optimistic, but we got into the play-offs last year and I reckon we'll be there or there abouts again. I know that's not hugely exciting, particularly when we don't really look like getting any trophies from it, but always with a real shot at the play-offs is better than we were when I started supporting Ulster and better than many places.

Things are only really dark in the sense that Ulster Rugby could be a real powerhouse and that this is not happening, despite a set of loud utterances about how it was coming and some promising signs on the pitch, and that it looks set not to continue. I sometimes feel people here overreact a bit due to disappointment over that.

That's not an endorsement on how things are going. The non-rugby part of the operation seems utterly tone-deaf to what people want, those running the rugby parts of it look short of what we want, the playing staff is short of quality, depth and maybe professionalism as well, the academy seemingly can't produce a forward unless you give them a genetic freak... am I missing anything here?

Yet half the league would consider themselves doing quite nicely to be in our shoes.

If you are setting the dragons as the bar, well why even bother turning up?

If you compare it to football, undoubtedly the most cut throat sport in the UK, I've decided we are a bit like Newcastle United. Incredibly well supported, often in spite of the on pitch performances. We had a once proud history but have done largely the square root of FA since winning the HEC.

We're not an Arsenal because we are generally unable to play anything resembling attractive rugby. The top four finishes and continual failure in Europe do resonate however.

We're not Citeh, that's Toulon or Sarries quite clearly.

We're not Chelsea, they've won a few league titles recently and also enjoyed European success. Their style of play whilst not arguably aesthetically pleasing has proved effective.

Manchester United, please, sadly that's probably closer to Leinster who have also dropped from their past glories.

I think a dark place is perhaps a bit melodramatic however things are not straightforward by any means.

As oft' alluded to and lamented we have negligible SID most notably up front. There's also a question if we even have the quality in the supposed front liners.

Black has regressed as a scrummager as has Herbst. Warwick was held in higher esteem than his performances ever really merited, some were touting him for Ireland ffs and Lutton/BRoss are third rate triers at best.

Herring is an excellent back up to Rory. John Andrew is fast, that's about all I can say.

In the 'row we have VDM who has worked his Derry-air off but he's no Johann, then few are. Tuohy, who knows where his head is at. Played himself out of the World Cup squad with perhaps the worst performance of an Irish second row since, Christ, Bob Casey circa 2000? Big Lew is hard but that's about it and Browne is simply crap. What actually is wrong with O'Connor, these veiled references to being unable to play a full season?

Backrow is a maelstrom of mediocrity. Henry top class, Henderson, top class. Wilson-age catching up with him. Williams-what FLUB are we going to see play? Giving him a two year pass was a terrible decision. Faloon-decent, hard as nails trier, he'd get away if starting alongside Wilson/Hendeson but not quite powerful enough. Still unsure how or why he's behind Reidy. Reidy-cack. Cross-worse than cack. Diack-how he ever got capped is a travesty. Lovely, skilful player soft as, well, you get the idea.

The much adulated back line is in theory ok if we don't have an injury crisis and three centres out for more than 6 weeks is approaching that. Bowe being injured is equally unfortunate though if Trimble and Gilroy stay fit we are well catered for. Ludik is solid and unspectacular. Beyond that what of Nelson, Scholes, etc? Hard to say really, again they'd be fine in a strong-ish backline but they're not good enough to hold their own surrounded by players of a similar level.

The bottom line for me is that we have one of the best fan bases in Europe. We have facilities that rival the best in Europe. We have some very good Irish internationals and we also have some good solid HEC standard players. Sadly we also have some serious shyte floating about as well.

That said we are not the only Irish side struggling. I noted with interest that Munsterfans are lamenting the lack of quality in the reserves and subsequently SID. Connacht don't really count because they can, at worst, expect to lose two players to an Irish side at present.

Is this a bigger issue for Irish rugby than just Ulster Rugby? Leinster have a famed academy and fair play but why have the rest of us fell so far behind in developing young talent? Is it simply a numbers game?

There are of course questions about Leinster stock-piling talent. They've backrowers coming out of their ears and have Ireland's three best TH's. I'll begrudgingly remain happy with Herbst but Munster are losing BJ and Archer is crap. Why did Nuciforca not usher one of Moore or Furlong to Munster where they'd start every match they were fit for? Leinster have 8 good backrowers. Even ignoring their top 6 (Ruddock, Murphy, Heaslip, O'Brien, Conan and Ryan) there are others there better than CRoss/Reidy and almost certainly harder than Diack.

Before Bayern comes defending Leinsters right to stockpile we had had a serious pool of centres. Payne, Marshall, Cave and Olding (unsure of this one) are all capped centres and McCloskey is a great prospect. Guys like Whitten and Farrell left long before Nuciforca when there was a bottleneck of players behind BOD/Dorse but the picture isn't so rosey any longer. We should only be allowed 4 Irish capped centres IMO.

There are big issues facing Irish rugby in general. The Academy's are being left behind by Leinster and I don't know about the others but ours is a farce.

We had a chance IMO when we retained McLaughs but once he got shafted to looking after school-kids and packed up and left we were fudged. Kieron Campbell has no coaching pedigree, why would anyone take him seriously? He was a joke at Dungannon. Codling was a good appointment IMO but he's only a recent addition. Maybe I'm wrong and it's a raw materials issue.

One thing is for certain we need to get the finger out and stop resting on our laurels and patting backs about what a great job we are doing because we are not. The acceptance of mediocrity seems to go from bottom to top and one needs only to look at our glorious leader as to just how mediocre we are.

Coca cola in Russia, committed club man for a club who don't even remember him playing, what exactly was he in the army reserves? Who swallowed this BS?

Anyways I'm away for a Black Bush and a sedative, quite possibly to be taken as a suppository.

[Kofi Annan]

I hate this cryptic sh1t

Nothing cryptic in my post, a while back some where on here bleating like bitches that Atkinson got the chop as he did not match what was required for a professional back row, if that's connected to CT I don't know, and I don't really care, we have a lot more problems than worrying about small players.

[Snipe Watson]

I don't think we're heading for any darker times than Ulster's mostly been of recent years or than exist at most other professional rugby organisations. I mean, if things are dark at Ulster, than what are they at Dragons? Maybe I'm over-optimistic, but we got into the play-offs last year and I reckon we'll be there or there abouts again. I know that's not hugely exciting, particularly when we don't really look like getting any trophies from it, but always with a real shot at the play-offs is better than we were when I started supporting Ulster and better than many places.

Things are only really dark in the sense that Ulster Rugby could be a real powerhouse and that this is not happening, despite a set of loud utterances about how it was coming and some promising signs on the pitch, and that it looks set not to continue. I sometimes feel people here overreact a bit due to disappointment over that.

That's not an endorsement on how things are going. The non-rugby part of the operation seems utterly tone-deaf to what people want, those running the rugby parts of it look short of what we want, the playing staff is short of quality, depth and maybe professionalism as well, the academy seemingly can't produce a forward unless you give them a genetic freak... am I missing anything here?

Yet half the league would consider themselves doing quite nicely to be in our shoes.

If you are setting the dragons as the bar, well why even bother turning up?

If you compare it to football, undoubtedly the most cut throat sport in the UK, I've decided we are a bit like Newcastle United. Incredibly well supported, often in spite of the on pitch performances. We had a once proud history but have done largely the square root of FA since winning the HEC.

We're not an Arsenal because we are generally unable to play anything resembling attractive rugby. The top four finishes and continual failure in Europe do resonate however.

We're not Citeh, that's Toulon or Sarries quite clearly.

We're not Chelsea, they've won a few league titles recently and also enjoyed European success. Their style of play whilst not arguably aesthetically pleasing has proved effective.

Manchester United, please, sadly that's probably closer to Leinster who have also dropped from their past glories.

I think a dark place is perhaps a bit melodramatic however things are not straightforward by any means.

As oft' alluded to and lamented we have negligible SID most notably up front. There's also a question if we even have the quality in the supposed front liners.

Black has regressed as a scrummager as has Herbst. Warwick was held in higher esteem than his performances ever really merited, some were touting him for Ireland ffs and Lutton/BRoss are third rate triers at best.

Herring is an excellent back up to Rory. John Andrew is fast, that's about all I can say.

In the 'row we have VDM who has worked his Derry-air off but he's no Johann, then few are. Tuohy, who knows where his head is at. Played himself out of the World Cup squad with perhaps the worst performance of an Irish second row since, Christ, Bob Casey circa 2000? Big Lew is hard but that's about it and Browne is simply crap. What actually is wrong with O'Connor, these veiled references to being unable to play a full season?

Backrow is a maelstrom of mediocrity. Henry top class, Henderson, top class. Wilson-age catching up with him. Williams-what FLUB are we going to see play? Giving him a two year pass was a terrible decision. Faloon-decent, hard as nails trier, he'd get away if starting alongside Wilson/Hendeson but not quite powerful enough. Still unsure how or why he's behind Reidy. Reidy-cack. Cross-worse than cack. Diack-how he ever got capped is a travesty. Lovely, skilful player soft as, well, you get the idea.

The much adulated back line is in theory ok if we don't have an injury crisis and three centres out for more than 6 weeks is approaching that. Bowe being injured is equally unfortunate though if Trimble and Gilroy stay fit we are well catered for. Ludik is solid and unspectacular. Beyond that what of Nelson, Scholes, etc? Hard to say really, again they'd be fine in a strong-ish backline but they're not good enough to hold their own surrounded by players of a similar level.

The bottom line for me is that we have one of the best fan bases in Europe. We have facilities that rival the best in Europe. We have some very good Irish internationals and we also have some good solid HEC standard players. Sadly we also have some serious shyte floating about as well.

That said we are not the only Irish side struggling. I noted with interest that Munsterfans are lamenting the lack of quality in the reserves and subsequently SID. Connacht don't really count because they can, at worst, expect to lose two players to an Irish side at present.

Is this a bigger issue for Irish rugby than just Ulster Rugby? Leinster have a famed academy and fair play but why have the rest of us fell so far behind in developing young talent? Is it simply a numbers game?

There are of course questions about Leinster stock-piling talent. They've backrowers coming out of their ears and have Ireland's three best TH's. I'll begrudgingly remain happy with Herbst but Munster are losing BJ and Archer is crap. Why did Nuciforca not usher one of Moore or Furlong to Munster where they'd start every match they were fit for? Leinster have 8 good backrowers. Even ignoring their top 6 (Ruddock, Murphy, Heaslip, O'Brien, Conan and Ryan) there are others there better than CRoss/Reidy and almost certainly harder than Diack.

Before Bayern comes defending Leinsters right to stockpile we had had a serious pool of centres. Payne, Marshall, Cave and Olding (unsure of this one) are all capped centres and McCloskey is a great prospect. Guys like Whitten and Farrell left long before Nuciforca when there was a bottleneck of players behind BOD/Dorse but the picture isn't so rosey any longer. We should only be allowed 4 Irish capped centres IMO.

There are big issues facing Irish rugby in general. The Academy's are being left behind by Leinster and I don't know about the others but ours is a farce.

We had a chance IMO when we retained McLaughs but once he got shafted to looking after school-kids and packed up and left we were fudged. Kieron Campbell has no coaching pedigree, why would anyone take him seriously? He was a joke at Dungannon. Codling was a good appointment IMO but he's only a recent addition. Maybe I'm wrong and it's a raw materials issue.

One thing is for certain we need to get the finger out and stop resting on our laurels and patting backs about what a great job we are doing because we are not. The acceptance of mediocrity seems to go from bottom to top and one needs only to look at our glorious leader as to just how mediocre we are.

Coca cola in Russia, committed club man for a club who don't even remember him playing, what exactly was he in the army reserves? Who swallowed this BS?

Anyways I'm away for a Black Bush and a sedative, quite possibly to be taken as a suppository.

Outstanding rant Buck
A pretty fair assessment of the situation too.
I wonder how long Nucifora etal will sit and watch this dysfunctional structure descend into factional infighting?

[ruckover]

I think Buck is a little bit harsh in his assessment here and there but not far off. We have a good Pro12 team, but overall a team that will not win trophies.