AIL FIXTURES

[Shan]

Getting beaten by those kind of scores is dreadful. Being beaten by those kind of scores at home is scandalous. Dungannon and Bruff, 7-59 to Ballynahinch both in a bad place, as are Ballymena of course.

In other more agreeable news Shannon beat Con 45-26. Fantastic stuff although letting Con get 4 tries is a balls. But I don't mind as Shannon are off the bottom of the table at last, moving ahead of both Bohs and Belvo.

Gwan Shannon. The mighty shall rise once again.....well not quite but it is good to see a few wins coming our way.


Lansdowne pulling clear in Division 1A under the guidance of Mike Ruddock.

[ColinM]

Getting beaten by those kind of scores is dreadful. Being beaten by those kind of scores at home is scandalous. Dungannon and Bruff, 7-59 to Ballynahinch both in a bad place, as are Ballymena of course.

In other more agreeable news Shannon beat Con 45-26. Fantastic stuff although letting Con get 4 tries is a balls. But I don't mind as Shannon are off the bottom of the table at last, moving ahead of both Bohs and Belvo.

Gwan Shannon. The mighty shall rise once again.....well not quite but it is good to see a few wins coming our way.


Lansdowne pulling clear in Division 1A under the guidance of Mike Ruddock.

Hey Shan was reading on mf.com (I know I shouldnt) calls to scrap various outfits and put out a united Limerick team in the AIL. Im not sure you'd be all for it!

Cant say the amalgamations ending up with the Belfast Harlequins were tremendously successful but hard to disagree that fewer bigger clubs should make for a better AIL and therefore better conveyor belt for the provinces.

Its one of the reasons why the apparent demise of Gannon and Mena is sad, thems two big clubs importantly 30miles away from the competition and the stalwarts of Ulster rugby representation in the AIL as far back as I can recall. IMHO Ulster needs three teams in the top tier domestically and at least two in div 1b to develop the players we need. Two of them need tobe gannon and mena

[RuPi]

Who has been coaching Shannon since Keogh left?

[Shan]

Hey Shan was reading on mf.com (I know I shouldnt) calls to scrap various outfits and put out a united Limerick team in the AIL. Im not sure you'd be all for it!

Cant say the amalgamations ending up with the Belfast Harlequins were tremendously successful but hard to disagree that fewer bigger clubs should make for a better AIL and therefore better conveyor belt for the provinces.

Its one of the reasons why the apparent demise of Gannon and Mena is sad, thems two big clubs importantly 30miles away from the competition and the stalwarts of Ulster rugby representation in the AIL as far back as I can recall. IMHO Ulster needs three teams in the top tier domestically and at least two in div 1b to develop the players we need. Two of them need tobe gannon and mena

I have always been of the opinion over the last 10 years or so that we need a smaller top flight AIL and to have the Division 1 clubs as strong as possible. Now we have kind of got there on the first point with just 10 clubs in Division 1A but there is so much which needs to be done to improve the strength in the league. One thing I see is that the provincial A and development squads do not allow the club game to flourish because they are grabbing up all the players. A club is expected to put resources into developing a squad but then they have the provinces coming in and stealing away the players whenever they feel like it.

I believe there is a place for club rugby and would prefer an 8 or 10 strong AIL existing as the second tier behind the provinces first teams. In other words get rid of the A provincial games which I don't see serving much of a purpose. Better to have players playing games reguarly at a decent standard rather than arsing about the place on the offchance they may get a provincial game. But the issue is that clubs and professional rugby do not operate in the same sport nowadays. The provinces only want to use the clubs when it suits their requirements rather than as a strategy to develop players with gametime. Of course I understand it is not as simple as that and the clubs do themselves no favours either as lots of them still have their heads and noses in the air.

This needs IRFU direction.....so we can safely assume it will not happen.

As to the actual question.....No way would I want to see Shannon amalgamated with another club. There's too much history at stake just to throw it all away. Any new club like this would get little support I'd say and you just know that you'd have people very suspicious of who was running the show. I mean if Shannon were merged with their natural brother, Garryowen, you'd have many Shannon people, including me, who would just think the Garryowen b-stards would have the run of the place. Nooooooo there'd just be too much bitterness to overcome.

I realise this stance itself wouldn't be a positive in the overall scheme of things but some things just have too awful a taste to swallow.

I agree on Dungannon and Ballymena. Two mighty clubs with rich histories who have contributed massively to Irish rugby over the years. I remember some titanic battles in the early days of the AIL between Shannon and Ballymena especially, including even once when they almost did the unthinkable and beat us in Thomond Park which not many clubs, bar Con, did at that stage.

Of course both these clubs won the AIL. Terrible to see them struggling so badly. Every other previous winner of the AIL is in Division 1A at the moment.

[Hans Indaruck]

Hey Shan was reading on mf.com (I know I shouldnt) calls to scrap various outfits and put out a united Limerick team in the AIL. Im not sure you'd be all for it!

Cant say the amalgamations ending up with the Belfast Harlequins were tremendously successful but hard to disagree that fewer bigger clubs should make for a better AIL and therefore better conveyor belt for the provinces.

Its one of the reasons why the apparent demise of Gannon and Mena is sad, thems two big clubs importantly 30miles away from the competition and the stalwarts of Ulster rugby representation in the AIL as far back as I can recall. IMHO Ulster needs three teams in the top tier domestically and at least two in div 1b to develop the players we need. Two of them need tobe gannon and mena

I have always been of the opinion over the last 10 years or so that we need a smaller top flight AIL and to have the Division 1 clubs as strong as possible. Now we have kind of got there on the first point with just 10 clubs in Division 1A but there is so much which needs to be done to improve the strength in the league. One thing I see is that the provincial A and development squads do not allow the club game to flourish because they are grabbing up all the players. A club is expected to put resources into developing a squad but then they have the provinces coming in and stealing away the players whenever they feel like it.

I believe there is a place for club rugby and would prefer an 8 or 10 strong AIL existing as the second tier behind the provinces first teams. In other words get rid of the A provincial games which I don't see serving much of a purpose. Better to have players playing games reguarly at a decent standard rather than arsing about the place on the offchance they may get a provincial game. But the issue is that clubs and professional rugby do not operate in the same sport nowadays. The provinces only want to use the clubs when it suits their requirements rather than as a strategy to develop players with gametime. Of course I understand it is not as simple as that and the clubs do themselves no favours either as lots of them still have their heads and noses in the air.

This needs IRFU direction.....so we can safely assume it will not happen.

As to the actual question.....No way would I want to see Shannon amalgamated with another club. There's too much history at stake just to throw it all away. Any new club like this would get little support I'd say and you just know that you'd have people very suspicious of who was running the show. I mean if Shannon were merged with their natural brother, Garryowen, you'd have many Shannon people, including me, who would just think the Garryowen b-stards would have the run of the place. Nooooooo there'd just be too much bitterness to overcome.

I realise this stance itself wouldn't be a positive in the overall scheme of things but some things just have too awful a taste to swallow.

I agree on Dungannon and Ballymena. Two mighty clubs with rich histories who have contributed massively to Irish rugby over the years. I remember some titanic battles in the early days of the AIL between Shannon and Ballymena especially, including even once when they almost did the unthinkable and beat us in Thomond Park which not many clubs, bar Con, did at that stage.

Of course both these clubs won the AIL. Terrible to see them struggling so badly. Every other previous winner of the AIL is in Division 1A at the moment.

I agree with your analysis Shan - Clubs are all but being bypassed in the Provencial set-up nowadays - just a flag of convenience when it suits! In reality it is the schools where it counts now with young prospects being pulled into the academy system etc. Not all bad - but not necessarily good either with some good talent slipping the net.

[Shan]

I agree with your analysis Shan - Clubs are all but being bypassed in the Provencial set-up nowadays - just a flag of convenience when it suits! In reality it is the schools where it counts now with young prospects being pulled into the academy system etc. Not all bad - but not necessarily good either with some good talent slipping the net.

Spot on. Because of the incestuous and insular nature of rugby in Ireland(at official level particularly) there's plenty of young players being lost after school. Some players are becoming afraid to sign for particular clubs as it affects their chances of getting a chance later with the province.

I will only speak for Limerick clubs here.......I know of a particular coach involved in the Munster development squad who has told players they need to move to a certain Limerick club if they want to have any chance of getting an opportunity to catch his eye. I know of some players who were with Limerick clubs who have left Ireland, partly because they couldn't get a look in with Munster. One of these players has previously outshone a certain player in an AIC Final who subsequently went on to play in a H Cup final and be capped for Ireland. Be advised this is not a post about that player who has done nothing wrong. This is about the IRFU and their short-sightedness and the bias which exists in and hurts Irish rugby.

If we had a strong AIL feeding up to the provinces and openness and fairness in dealings with all players we'd be better off in the long run.

[Hans Indaruck]

I agree with your analysis Shan - Clubs are all but being bypassed in the Provencial set-up nowadays - just a flag of convenience when it suits! In reality it is the schools where it counts now with young prospects being pulled into the academy system etc. Not all bad - but not necessarily good either with some good talent slipping the net.

Spot on. Because of the incestuous and insular nature of rugby in Ireland(at official level particularly) there's plenty of young players being lost after school. Some players are becoming afraid to sign for particular clubs as it affects their chances of getting a chance later with the province.

I will only speak for Limerick clubs here.......I know of a particular coach involved in the Munster development squad who has told players they need to move to a certain Limerick club if they want to have any chance of getting an opportunity to catch his eye. I know of some players who were with Limerick clubs who have left Ireland, partly because they couldn't get a look in with Munster. One of these players has previously outshone a certain player in an AIC Final who subsequently went on to play in a H Cup final and be capped for Ireland. Be advised this is not a post about that player who has done nothing wrong. This is about the IRFU and their short-sightedness and the bias which exists in and hurts Irish rugby.

If we had a strong AIL feeding up to the provinces and openness and fairness in dealings with all players we'd be better off in the long run.

Totally agree! I'm afraid the 'blazer brigade' with jaundiced views of certain clubs and 'old schools' is doing the national (and provencial) game a disservice - unfortunately I don't see any change on the horizon for some time to come!

[ColinM]

All good points well made. But the provincial 'A' games vs club rugby, well its a bit chicken and egg so it is. There wouldnt be a need for A games if there was a suitably strong AIL and there would be more chance of a suitably strong AIL if there were no A games....


I'd definitely be of the opinion that dropping the A games in favour of a few interpro U20s if it made the league better but sadly its going to take such a lot more

[Kofi Annan]

Back to regional leagues , bin the AIL and the silly money being paid to players who will never make it to being a professional, and concentrate on Ravens etc is the way forward, if not the likes of Mena and Gannon will become Jnr clubs, think of the money Rainey and Ards could save. Spend the money on full time administrator / coach to run all club sides including youth and develop from within the club, therefore having a sound club structure. That's the way forward and very simple, only problem is, it's too fecking simple.

[RuPi]

The Branch must be worried that if both sides go down how will the allocation of players work out next season.

[dublane]

if they both go down, their top rep players will be moved on to hinch when they go up. Think Dungannon might avoid the drop but mena are gone The chickens are coming home to roost for some of the clubs in ulster who spent big money without pulling the same amount in for a number of years (not specifically dgannon and mena)

[Rooster]

The Branch must be worried that if both sides go down how will the allocation of players work out next season.

Split them between Malone and Armagh, they would be as well off as they are at present !

[troupe86]

AIL rugby definitely has an important place in the overall structure of Irish rugby, and should be afforded more support from the provincial branches (especially the Ulster branch). I play for Instonians and it is a shame to see not only my club being offered next to no support (administratively and financially), but also the many other clubs in Ulster who are rich in history and tradition. The shambles at Dungannon and Ballymena is really indicative of a lot of Ulster AIL clubs at the moment who feel that they are being abandoned by the Ulster branch who trot out unimportant 'representative' fixtures which seemingly account for nothing in the grand scheme of things. Club identity should be an element that is marketed across different areas of the province, and would certainly afford people the opportunity to recognise that there is a local rugby club in their area to get involved with on either a spectator or player basis.

In reality, nothing beats watching a good local derby on a Saturday afternoon.

Oh, and on a point raised by Kofi Annan - to be honest, more money is passing hands to sign and maintain players in Qualifying 1 than there is at AIL level. In fact, even at Qualifying 2, there are reports that a particular club has paid a player £10,000 to sign for them for the season!

[RuPi]

If clubs would worry about putting the money back into the youth system and creating links with local schools they would sustain their clubs better. Banbridge, Hinch and Malone have good youth set ups whilst Armagh appear to be built on a lot of ex pupils from the royal and all 4 have gone ok this year.

[damianmcr]

I know nothing about club rugby but take an interest in reading this thread the odd time.

If one of Dungannon or Ballymena go down would there better players jump ship if they could to say Hinch?