Positives and Negatives: Ulster V Dragons

[ardsrugbyards]

+ good show of Ulster fans at rodney parade considering the large turn out 7 days earlier in glasgee

[breakdown]

Quite a good performance, but it even scares me how good we can be and the potential of the squad with a full team out and if we cut out the errors. The potential is scary!

[Rooster]

When you really take that match apart we were pretty average a lot of the time, basic silly errors, stupid penaltys etc but hey who cares we knocked the fire out of the Dragons

[Amiga500]

Henderson was a liability tonight, his youth and inexperience really showed up this evening.

I'm glad I am not the only one who thought he was far from "immense".

I also noted a few times when we were mauling and he was... awkward about joining the tail - I think he was a contributing factor in at least one of them falling to pieces.


Early days for the man - the hand skills are there as is the physicality, its just the mind has to sharpen to the professional game. Hopefully it will come in (not too much) time.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Henderson was a liability tonight, .......... he generally did look a little out of his depth.

The boy played well, but 'immense' he was not.

Interesting definition of "played well"

Not too many would agree that being a liability and being out of his depth equalled playing well.

On the point of his age being irrelevant, that he's playing for Ulster, so he needs to be good enough, that may be the case for the imports we bring in, but even they (in whatever club/league they started in) did not start their careers as the finished article, and nor should we expect our own home grown (home growing) talent to be either. The simple fact is that every player needs time and experience to reach their best and the only way to do that is give them that time and experience on the pitch to learn. If that means they get over eager at times, give a way a few penalties from time to time, so be it ..... so long as they learn from it, improve and their overall contribution more than makes up for these shortcomings as they are learning. I for one say, well played Iain Henderson - keep on going and you'll be the better for it.

Liability? No

Out of his depth? Definitely not (no more than most players on the Dragons team)

Played well? Yes - mostly.

As for a Positives and Negatives thread at this stage of the season - I know it has now become traditional, but have we become a bunch of wingeing weemen? Of course we made mistakes last night, as we have in other matches, as have the best teams in the world, but "negatives"? Come on!

We're 8 from 8, top of the heiny group, top of the league - I can only see positives. Yes, there are things for the squad to work on going forward, but negatives? I don't think so!

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Maybe it's just my hearing but at the start of the game the crowd were very vocal even more than the crew on the 2BC, and where giving Ulster players a hard time, akin to yon 2BC silly chanting, maybe Big Tom was just over reactive,

It's just your hearing!

anyway to my point wtf is this phrase "strike runners" it was like McWhirter and Field discovered a new play thing and tried to get it into every sentence last night. I assume it will be the new phrase bandied about here by our cyber level 3 coaches

The only mention I've seen of it is here. Are you a cyber level 3 coach?

[scrum5]

Not a negative and not a criticism but Tommy Bowe is playing far below the standard that he has set, he has run some brilliant lines and not got much reward for them but his general play has been sloppy eg passing to players in his own half and the fielding of the ball in his own 22, with more game time it will improve. As for Ruan thought he was fine last night at 10 but when Paddy J came on and Pienaar moved back to 9 he looked so much better, Jackson had a good cameo especially the inside flick pass for Jareds' try. The changing of the ball to the other hand so he could fend off the last defender may seem rather simplistic but it is a skill that a lot of players don't seem to have, I think it's called a rugby brain and Jared certainly has one of them...

[scrum5]

Henderson was a liability tonight, .......... he generally did look a little out of his depth.

The boy played well, but 'immense' he was not.

Interesting definition of "played well"

Not too many would agree that being a liability and being out of his depth equalled playing well.

On the point of his age being irrelevant, that he's playing for Ulster, so he needs to be good enough, that may be the case for the imports we bring in, but even they (in whatever club/league they started in) did not start their careers as the finished article, and nor should we expect our own home grown (home growing) talent to be either. The simple fact is that every player needs time and experience to reach their best and the only way to do that is give them that time and experience on the pitch to learn. If that means they get over eager at times, give a way a few penalties from time to time, so be it ..... so long as they learn from it, improve and their overall contribution more than makes up for these shortcomings as they are learning. I for one say, well played Iain Henderson - keep on going and you'll be the better for it.

Liability? No

Out of his depth? Definitely not (no more than most players on the Dragons team)

Played well? Yes - mostly.

As for a Positives and Negatives thread at this stage of the season - I know it has now become traditional, but have we become a bunch of wingeing weemen? Of course we made mistakes last night, as we have in other matches, as have the best teams in the world, but "negatives"? Come on!

We're 8 from 8, top of the heiny group, top of the league - I can only see positives. Yes, there are things for the squad to work on going forward, but negatives? I don't think so!

Excellent post Grumps.......

[Dave]

by Dave » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:09 pm

Henderson was immense fuzzy. He was aggressive and powerful in contact. He stopped players and drove them back on a few occaisons. He had couple of big carries as well, bumping off tackles. Totally ridiculous to say he was out of his depth because of a few errors in an error ridden game. Pienaar and Bowe out of their depth too? Try watching the game with your eyes open this time
He didn't fall off any tackles either. Needless negativity about a player who stood out this evening.

NO ONE on that pitch was immense tonight. Collectively we were poor, individually we were poor.

He had 2 good carries, and knocked on at the end of one like I already said.

He lost his head on several occasions. A rush of blood to the head gifted the Dragons the opening 3 points, he gifted them another 3 later in the half and he cocked up a potential try rushing in at first receiver.

These brain farts are classic signs of a player who is out of his depth and trying too hard to look good.

Tommy and Jared make mistakes sure, they are seasoned player's who know when things are on and when they arnt. Its the execution that let them down, not over eagerness.

My negativity is a direct response to the standard UAFC over hype of an Ulster player.

The boy played well, but 'immense' he was not.

The word immense, to me really just means great, or maybe slightly better than great. Not as good as fantastic or excellent. You say no one was immense, not Trimble, Nick Williams or Henry. Especially Henry who busted his balls all game?

Neither of two penalties he gave away would be given by a decent ref. Fitzgibbon, as Baggy said earlier, pings everything he sees without considering how the offence effects the flow of the game. He pinged Hendo when he didn't roll away, yet it was once of those instances were it would be more disruptive to the scrum half to move and the ball was clearly available, Hendy just lay still to minimise the disruption. The second pen was for hands in the ruck. This needs a second look as Hendo was on his feet and his hands were near the ball but it looked to me more likely a dragons foot that dislodged the ball. Henderson made no scooping motion to force that ball back that I could see although his hands were in the vicinity of the ball. Was very harsh at least, at worst just a wrong call by the ref. He made more than two carries as far as i can remember. He knocked on but to say that these were BRAINFARTS?? That is overstating his errors and for what purpose I dont know? Anyone else think these were brainfarts?

You say that Henderson is trying too hard to look good as a classic sign of being him being out of his depth? Classic signs according to whom? Are you seriously standing by the statement that Iain Henderson was out of his depth against the Dragons in the Pro 12 last night? Making statements like that is a reductionist approach not considering other reasons, like it was just a simple error and move on. No for you it can only mean he is trying too hard and out of his depth against the team we scored six tries against. I look forward to seeing you tryin to extricate yourself from that remark, as you no doubt will.

No one is overhyping Henderson just reflecting on an immense performance. Hyping the guy would saying he'll be Ireland captain in 5 years time. You're free to write whatever you like, but don't expect others not to challenge you when you overstate or be overly negative for no apparent reason.

In the same post you have stated, in a diachotic manner, that Henderson is out of his depth and also conversely the boy played well. How about you decide which one you are standing by. I'm suggesting the latter.

[Dave]

Henderson was a liability tonight, his youth and inexperience really showed up this evening.

I'm glad I am not the only one who thought he was far from "immense".

I also noted a few times when we were mauling and he was... awkward about joining the tail - I think he was a contributing factor in at least one of them falling to pieces.


Early days for the man - the hand skills are there as is the physicality, its just the mind has to sharpen to the professional game. Hopefully it will come in (not too much) time.

Fair enough Amiga if you dont wish to use the word immense, but are you siding with Fuzzy saying he was a liability and out of his depth against the Dragons?

[UlsterNo9]

Positive - Wilson with 30 minutes under his belt in the senior team. Will need him ready for AI period

[Amiga500]

Fair enough Amiga if you dont wish to use the word immense, but are you siding with Fuzzy saying he was a liability and out of his depth against the Dragons?

He was not a liability, but I will say at times he did look mighty green. While not out of his depth physically or skills-wise, as I said, there were occasions he did look a bit headless.


What I will be looking for in the future is to see if he has learned from the mistakes being made last night, particularly in joining mauls as that is a fairly controlled facet of the game. If the mistakes are being repeated - I will be a little concerned - what separates the good from the great is the top 2 inches.

Going back a week, I wasn't... satisfied... with his packing in behind Tom Court at scrum-time in the match vs. Glasgow, that wasn't repeated last night, so the omens re. learning are good.


If he keeps on the current curve, in 2 years we are going to have a monster and I can't wait.

[fuzzylogic]

by Dave » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:30 pm

The word immense, to me really just means great, or maybe slightly better than great. Not as good as fantastic or excellent. You say no one was immense, not Trimble, Nick Williams or Henry. Especially Henry who busted his balls all game?

'Immense' - immeasurable, boundless, extremely large in scale or degree. Thats the definition of immense.

Brian O'Driscoll has been an immense player for Ireland over the years.

Richie McCaw is an immense openside.

Can you honestly sit behind your computer and say Henderson was immense last night? Was he miles better than any other player on the pitch?! Does an immense player really make 7 or 8 errors in one game?!

Neither of two penalties he gave away would be given by a decent ref. Fitzgibbon

That is absolute tom kite. Have a look for yourself again with the glasses on. 41 seconds into the game, Tuilagi is tackled by Touhy and Henderson. Henderson gets up and tries to go for the ball, Dragons No.1 comes in and hits Henderson, 2 players in means the ruck is formed so Henderson cant now go for the ball as he wasnt already touching it. He then falls sideways over the ruck and slaps the ball out as hes going down. How in the world anyone thinks that isnt a penalty has never actually really watched a game or played it at any level.

He pinged Hendo when he didn't roll away, yet it was once of those instances were it would be more disruptive to the scrum half to move and the ball was clearly available, Hendy just lay still to minimise the disruption. The second pen was for hands in the ruck. This needs a second look as Hendo was on his feet and his hands were near the ball but it looked to me more likely a dragons foot that dislodged the ball. Henderson made no scooping motion to force that ball back that I could see although his hands were in the vicinity of the ball.

So he's given away 3 pens then? Hell, I only said he gave away 6 points, and the first of I've just explained above, if the second was for not rolling away, did he put his hands in again and give away another 3?!

(for the record, just lying there motionless is not good enough, players have to be seen to be making an attempt to free themselves and move away from the ball. Watch a bit more rugby and you will see players on the wrong side, clearly away from the ball still over exaggerating their movements so the referee wont ping them)

Was very harsh at least, at worst just a wrong call by the ref. He made more than two carries as far as i can remember. He knocked on but to say that these were BRAINFARTS?? That is overstating his errors and for what purpose I dont know? Anyone else think these were brainfarts?

I didnt say he only made 2 carries, I said he made 2 carries of note. He made a few carries where little to no ground was made but we were able to set up a decent platform for small paul to get the ball away, which is fine, this has to be done on occasion and Henderson done it well...but.... He made 2 carries that actually broke the gaineline and got the team going forward, at the end of one he knocked on. Again I also talked about 'brainfarts' and getting a rush of blood to the head but I didnt say these were knock ons. Its the over eagerness to try and turnover the ball or get that extra few metres on a carry that I would consider a mistake. At the minute, he just doesnt have the head to know when he can and cant do certain things, he is all heart and action and lacking in top 2 inches.

You say that Henderson is trying too hard to look good as a classic sign of being him being out of his depth? Classic signs according to whom? Are you seriously standing by the statement that Iain Henderson was out of his depth against the Dragons in the Pro 12 last night? Making statements like that is a reductionist approach not considering other reasons, like it was just a simple error and move on. No for you it can only mean he is trying too hard and out of his depth against the team we scored six tries against. I look forward to seeing you tryin to extricate yourself from that remark, as you no doubt will.

Try watching a bit more rugby and you'll see, hell try going down to your local rugby club at the start of the season when a few young players are being given a a chance with the big boys. They time and time again get on the pitch and try too hard to impress, and give away pens for hands in the ruck etc like Henderson did on occasion last night.

No one is overhyping Henderson just reflecting on an immense performance. Hyping the guy would saying he'll be Ireland captain in 5 years time. You're free to write whatever you like, but don't expect others not to challenge you when you overstate or be overly negative for no apparent reason.

Have you read some of the posts on the site about Henderson, not so much in this thread but on the board in general. Hell, someone even suggested him as Ulster captain in the "Who will captain Ulster when Muller leaves?" thread.

I dont mind being challenged when I make an opinion, this site is for discussion of such things but dont expect me not to challenge someone when they overstate or be overly positive for no apparent reason. (I did have a reason, not that I really need one for you, have you taken this a bit personally Dave?)

In the same post you have stated, in a diachotic manner, that Henderson is out of his depth and also conversely the boy played well. How about you decide which one you are standing by. I'm suggesting the latter.

and both are possible.

He did play well for the most part, he scrummed well, he rucked well for the most part and bar a couple of poor attempted tackles he tackled well too.

However ... He made several silly mistakes that made him look out of his depth at senior level. (understandable, he is only 20 with a handful of games under his belt)


As for calling him a liability, it was the 6 points in front of our posts and the potential try he cocked up that makes him a liability. He can get away with those we are playing a Dragons B team but if he makes the same kind of errors against the likes of Leinster we will be looking for a losing BP rather than a full 5 pointer.

Come on now guys, does anyone here actually thing that Henderson would have been even in the matchday squad last week or the 1st XV last night if Ferris was the only back rower injured?! He has been given so much game time out of necessity with 3 of our 5 potential no.6's injured.

[Snipe Watson]

NO ONE on that pitch was immense tonight. Collectively we were poor, individually we were poor.

Don't know what point you are trying to make Fuzzy, but that statement is wrong. Trimble's showing last night was immense in defence and attack. The only error I saw was the kick out of the 22 that went straight out, but since he was the third set of hands after the ball was carried back in, I'll write that one off. Chris' performance wasn't far behind.

[scrum5]

Fuzzy ever thought of becoming a Motivational Guru or a sports psychologist, you could make a fortune by the way I know what you mean but you also appear to be selling the big lad a tad short.