I reckon the imp needs Gibbes to turn it round rapidly or the imp will be looking for a new job so he will let him get on with it, now I will be totally disgusted if the imp gets a new contract as a result of that.Tighter End wrote:Yep, small margins make all the difference, like those 9 from 12.
It's a long journey from Frogspawn to Wolfpack.
Gibbes will have one hand tied as Andy said and St Vitus' imp will still be thwarting him at every turn.
Things could go the other way and Gibbes turns things around and we can howl when the imp tries to claim the plaudits.
KISS OUT
Moderator: Moderators
Re: KISS OUT
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
Rory Best
Re: KISS OUT
Ward's interview is bang on, bar his unfortunate malapropism re the success of Doak. Likewise McGlock - getting battered in a final isn't my definition of success. it's certainly an improvement on things now, mind.
As someone who was a Kiss supporter early doors and was prepared to give him quite a lot of time, I've found it remarkable how much he seems to have lost his way. His interviews and soundbites are comparable to David Moyes at Sunderland. starting the season by dampening expectations, predicting dogfights and ending it in the doldrums.
It seems pretty clear that LK currently doesn't have much energy for the fight. If that's due to internal politicking then we're rotten. if its a combination of other things then you're better changing the mindset entirely by cutting the obvious negativity. Looking to Gibbes to come in and kick some hoop; a thrashing at the hands of Leinster is perhaps what we need to catalyse things.
As an aside: listening to Big Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode's podcast from a few months ago when Darren Cave and Fez were guests. Cave opined that one of his favourite memories of Fez was Matt Williams trying to dig him out and make an example out of him in training and Fez, at top volume, scornfully telling MW to
off...to which Williams had little response. I'd imagine Cave has similar to say to some coaches at the moment.
As someone who was a Kiss supporter early doors and was prepared to give him quite a lot of time, I've found it remarkable how much he seems to have lost his way. His interviews and soundbites are comparable to David Moyes at Sunderland. starting the season by dampening expectations, predicting dogfights and ending it in the doldrums.
It seems pretty clear that LK currently doesn't have much energy for the fight. If that's due to internal politicking then we're rotten. if its a combination of other things then you're better changing the mindset entirely by cutting the obvious negativity. Looking to Gibbes to come in and kick some hoop; a thrashing at the hands of Leinster is perhaps what we need to catalyse things.
As an aside: listening to Big Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode's podcast from a few months ago when Darren Cave and Fez were guests. Cave opined that one of his favourite memories of Fez was Matt Williams trying to dig him out and make an example out of him in training and Fez, at top volume, scornfully telling MW to
off...to which Williams had little response. I'd imagine Cave has similar to say to some coaches at the moment.
Re: KISS OUT
Marcell getting injured and being unavailable for most of the season, is sheer bad luck. He demonstrated in a handful of games that he is a motivator with many leadership qualities. He showed us what we are missing and how we are a team devoid of any confidence or self-belief without him. As much as I think Les is a nice guy, he is a bit of Jeremy Corbyn, he is not a leader and has no track record or experience of leading a side.UlsterNo9 wrote:So basically all that was wrong this season as follows
1. Marcell was injured
2. Paddy missed a penalty in each of the Munster games, we would have won them otherwise
3. Reidys seatbelt tackle debacle against Scarlets away
4. A weather adverse night at Ravenhill versus Treviso meant we didn't get the bonus point
Address those four small margins and we would be in a home semi final spot
I'd imagine Gibbes is capable of adjusting those margins.
#devilsadvocate
Fine margins are one thing, but it is a massive assumption to say we would have gone on to win those games had the fine margin swung in our favour. Particularly against the Scarlets. If the pen try had not been awarded then Scarlets would have had a 5 metre scrum, who is to say that Scarlets would not have scored a try from that scenario. Not assuming they would but the thing is we simply don't know. The same applies to a missed pen. Unless the miss occurs as the final act in the game you cannot assume that the course of the game would have remained the same. If a pen is converted we have a restart but if missed there could be a 22 or they could catch and clear the ball. It might work in our favour but it might not, we have no way of knowing. The point is that the course of the game is altered and only in an alternative reality will the outcome be known.
It is our defensive strategy that allows teams plenty of opportunities to come back into the game and this why we get into fine margin situations.
We have also won a few games on some fine margins. Plenty of teams have missed vital kicks against us. The Scarlets absolutely fluffed a try at Spanners and Charlie saved the day. The victory over the Ospreys at home was as one sided a defeat (9-7) as they will ever have. For me it's not the results that I will judge LK on but the manner of the performances.
Week after week we have invited teams to attack us with our lateral drifting defence. Any average centre of a Maori origin who likes a step has ripped us to shreds. Lee-lo, Sailli, Fotonia etc... It may not be Les who is coaching the defence but as DoR he must step in when it is clearly failing. The one thing on Les' CV that is of any use to us is: HE IS A FORMER INTERNATIONAL DEFENCE COACH...WTAF!!!
That is why I have no confidence in Les and I hope he does impede Jonno in any way.
#FOLK
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
Re: KISS OUT
I think it's easy to talk about fine margins and miss the wider picture - we shouldn't be talking about fine margins. There are three good teams in the Pro12 and one of them has been gash this season and were out of the equation before the new year. Ospreys and Scarlets aren't good teams. They're alright. A team with the players available to Ulster shouldn't be relying on fine margins to squeeze into the Top 4 in a season when Glasgow have been as uncompetitive in the league as they were. If Ulster had squeezed into the Top 4 and had the typical away semi-final loss, given the toss they've served on the pitch it should still be decried as not good enough. Let's not forget, this Ulster side lost at home to Bordeaux in the HC...
There are three big problems Ulster have had this season (in order): defence; ball retention; and attack. In other words, Ulster have been weak in all three of the fundamental pillars of the game.
Let's begin with defence: losing a defence coach and having the new one jump ship halfway through the season isn't optimal but Kiss is a defence coach by trade. The only thing I can think of as a comparison for Ulster's defence is this season is a stupid rugby game I have on my iPad. It's not a great game but, you know, it's a rugby game for the iPad... Anyway... In this game, the optimal defensive tactic is basically to let the opposition run past you in midfield; the ballcarrier then gets isolated when you tackle him with your fullback and gives away a penalty. That has been what Ulster's defensive system has looked like to me, this season. It works in a stupid iPad game. It doesn't work in real rugby... The number of missed first up tackles, particularly in midfield, are an embarrassment.
Ball retention has been an embarrassment but I think it probably comes from a lack of confidence, as much as anything. Ulster's ball retention has been poor, so they try to do too much of first and second phase ball, which in turn ensures that ball retention is even poorer. Again, the number of unforced handling errors, stupid offloads and wayward passes from Ulster this season has been embarrassing.
And that brings me to attack. It's hard to attack meaningfully when ball retention is so poor but even when Ulster have had long phases of possession, or at least pressure, the conversion rate has often been abysmal. The Ospreys in Saturday was a case in point. It wasn't just that Ulster didn't score; it was that, until Stockdale came on, they didn't even look like scoring. The Osprey's defence was comfortable. In fact, with the exception of Clermont in Ravenhill, any reasonably decent defence has looked comfortable against Ulster this season.
A lot of this comes from selections. In no other country and probably in no other province would Stockdale sit on the bench whilst Gilroy showponies his way around the pitch, whilst Tommy Bowe couldn't catch a cold in an infection diseases unit and where Trimble has spent most of the season on the sidelines. In a few countries, I can imagine Stockdale would have already played international rugby... All of this happens at the same time when Gilroy gets his hands on the ball in midfield with men outside and is already seeing himself pirouetting to the tryline and tries to dance through 12 covering defenders before, predictably, being smashed to the ground, halting momentum and making it difficult for support players to get there because the decision is so illogical. Ulster are easy to defend against because their patterns are easy to read and selections have gone with players who make that even easier. At least McCloskey stands a chance of breaking a tackle in a rigid move or from static ball... Kiss, one way or another, is solely responsible for weak selections. The rest, he deserves something of a pass on until next season and new coaches are in place.
That said, my own patience is wearing thing. More so because of what is observable, even from how Kiss deals with the media. The identification of games that are "must win" versus games that aren't is the most fecking stupid thing I've ever heard a coach say. The drastic swings in Ulster's performances between what they served up against Clermont or Glasgow in Belfast compared to what they served up against Treviso and Cardiff, surely, come in part from the attitudes that are instilled as a result of this kind of logic. It would also explain why Ulster were so dire in the dead rubber against Bordeaux... The other thing is selections. I'm not talking about changing 10+ players for the away trip to Oyonnax last season, which was stupid in a different way but perhaps, also, passable as a calculated gamble that didn't work out. I'm talking about why Ludik has gone missing, despite being the player of the season before Christmas; why Stockdale sits on the bench three weeks out of four watching Gilroy prancing into tackles, or Bowe failing to catch the ball; why a young second row like Treadwell, who looks more and more like the real deal and could be one of the few positive notes from this season, was overlooked early on for a massively out-of-form Franco van der Merwe, or indeed why Franco has subsequently been sidelined when O'Connor hasn't done much of note in a long time... These things add up and while I can understand the desire for consistency in selection, given Kiss' incapacity to pick the same combinations week-on-week early in the season, that shouldn't come at the expense of mediocrity. Perhaps more damming than anything else, it seems to me that Kiss may have written this season off much earlier than many on here... But all that should do, if so, is heap the pressure on him to achieve something next season and to hit the ground running.
Kiss has some byes, though, as far as I am concerned. With forwards, the academy and development systems in Ulster clearly aren't doing their job. There is a very high likelihood that there will be no players in Ulster's preferred pack during the international windows that came through systems in Ulster. I've no problem with Ulster going anywhere to boost the strength of the team through Irish qualified players from there; but this, in turn, creates significant stresses on those players because it is not a substitute for a pool of talent that is almost as good and can actually step in. Kiss might also have a bye with the injury record at Ulster but there's I'm less sure. Do Ulster suffer so many lower limb injuries through bad luck, poor S&C or through the way players are asked to play, or from how much they are? If you'd asked me at the start of this season, I wasn't overoptimistic about what Ulster would achieve but I wouldn't have predicted how pathetic most of the performances have been. Had Ulster at least looked like they were going forward, I'd say Kiss deserves the whole of next season to see what he can do. As it is, results and performances need to be delivered early on.
Ulster at times this year reminded me of the clueless, directionless side we saw at the end of Mark McCall's tenure. Except that, in defence of McCall, Ulster have a hell of a lot more talent available now than McCall had at his disposal. The same performance in the McCall era with the players Ulster have now would probably equate to a mid table finish, given the comparative strength of the league. That, in itself, is a pretty damming verdict on what Kiss has achieved this season.
There are three big problems Ulster have had this season (in order): defence; ball retention; and attack. In other words, Ulster have been weak in all three of the fundamental pillars of the game.
Let's begin with defence: losing a defence coach and having the new one jump ship halfway through the season isn't optimal but Kiss is a defence coach by trade. The only thing I can think of as a comparison for Ulster's defence is this season is a stupid rugby game I have on my iPad. It's not a great game but, you know, it's a rugby game for the iPad... Anyway... In this game, the optimal defensive tactic is basically to let the opposition run past you in midfield; the ballcarrier then gets isolated when you tackle him with your fullback and gives away a penalty. That has been what Ulster's defensive system has looked like to me, this season. It works in a stupid iPad game. It doesn't work in real rugby... The number of missed first up tackles, particularly in midfield, are an embarrassment.
Ball retention has been an embarrassment but I think it probably comes from a lack of confidence, as much as anything. Ulster's ball retention has been poor, so they try to do too much of first and second phase ball, which in turn ensures that ball retention is even poorer. Again, the number of unforced handling errors, stupid offloads and wayward passes from Ulster this season has been embarrassing.
And that brings me to attack. It's hard to attack meaningfully when ball retention is so poor but even when Ulster have had long phases of possession, or at least pressure, the conversion rate has often been abysmal. The Ospreys in Saturday was a case in point. It wasn't just that Ulster didn't score; it was that, until Stockdale came on, they didn't even look like scoring. The Osprey's defence was comfortable. In fact, with the exception of Clermont in Ravenhill, any reasonably decent defence has looked comfortable against Ulster this season.
A lot of this comes from selections. In no other country and probably in no other province would Stockdale sit on the bench whilst Gilroy showponies his way around the pitch, whilst Tommy Bowe couldn't catch a cold in an infection diseases unit and where Trimble has spent most of the season on the sidelines. In a few countries, I can imagine Stockdale would have already played international rugby... All of this happens at the same time when Gilroy gets his hands on the ball in midfield with men outside and is already seeing himself pirouetting to the tryline and tries to dance through 12 covering defenders before, predictably, being smashed to the ground, halting momentum and making it difficult for support players to get there because the decision is so illogical. Ulster are easy to defend against because their patterns are easy to read and selections have gone with players who make that even easier. At least McCloskey stands a chance of breaking a tackle in a rigid move or from static ball... Kiss, one way or another, is solely responsible for weak selections. The rest, he deserves something of a pass on until next season and new coaches are in place.
That said, my own patience is wearing thing. More so because of what is observable, even from how Kiss deals with the media. The identification of games that are "must win" versus games that aren't is the most fecking stupid thing I've ever heard a coach say. The drastic swings in Ulster's performances between what they served up against Clermont or Glasgow in Belfast compared to what they served up against Treviso and Cardiff, surely, come in part from the attitudes that are instilled as a result of this kind of logic. It would also explain why Ulster were so dire in the dead rubber against Bordeaux... The other thing is selections. I'm not talking about changing 10+ players for the away trip to Oyonnax last season, which was stupid in a different way but perhaps, also, passable as a calculated gamble that didn't work out. I'm talking about why Ludik has gone missing, despite being the player of the season before Christmas; why Stockdale sits on the bench three weeks out of four watching Gilroy prancing into tackles, or Bowe failing to catch the ball; why a young second row like Treadwell, who looks more and more like the real deal and could be one of the few positive notes from this season, was overlooked early on for a massively out-of-form Franco van der Merwe, or indeed why Franco has subsequently been sidelined when O'Connor hasn't done much of note in a long time... These things add up and while I can understand the desire for consistency in selection, given Kiss' incapacity to pick the same combinations week-on-week early in the season, that shouldn't come at the expense of mediocrity. Perhaps more damming than anything else, it seems to me that Kiss may have written this season off much earlier than many on here... But all that should do, if so, is heap the pressure on him to achieve something next season and to hit the ground running.
Kiss has some byes, though, as far as I am concerned. With forwards, the academy and development systems in Ulster clearly aren't doing their job. There is a very high likelihood that there will be no players in Ulster's preferred pack during the international windows that came through systems in Ulster. I've no problem with Ulster going anywhere to boost the strength of the team through Irish qualified players from there; but this, in turn, creates significant stresses on those players because it is not a substitute for a pool of talent that is almost as good and can actually step in. Kiss might also have a bye with the injury record at Ulster but there's I'm less sure. Do Ulster suffer so many lower limb injuries through bad luck, poor S&C or through the way players are asked to play, or from how much they are? If you'd asked me at the start of this season, I wasn't overoptimistic about what Ulster would achieve but I wouldn't have predicted how pathetic most of the performances have been. Had Ulster at least looked like they were going forward, I'd say Kiss deserves the whole of next season to see what he can do. As it is, results and performances need to be delivered early on.
Ulster at times this year reminded me of the clueless, directionless side we saw at the end of Mark McCall's tenure. Except that, in defence of McCall, Ulster have a hell of a lot more talent available now than McCall had at his disposal. The same performance in the McCall era with the players Ulster have now would probably equate to a mid table finish, given the comparative strength of the league. That, in itself, is a pretty damming verdict on what Kiss has achieved this season.
Re: KISS OUT
Gerry Thornley makes the point in the Times this morning, in defence of Kiss, that if Ulster beat Leinster on Saturday you will have 14 wins this season, the same as last year. So the stats might not be all that bad for Kiss.
Changing coaches is an all too easy reaction. You are getting Gibbes. You should wait and see how the Gibbes/Kiss combo works for a few months before reaching conclusions.
Changing coaches is an all too easy reaction. You are getting Gibbes. You should wait and see how the Gibbes/Kiss combo works for a few months before reaching conclusions.
Re: KISS OUT
The number of wins is one thing; the manner of the performances is quite another. I think Ulster have played well in three games this season (Glasgow away, Clermont home and Glasgow home). That is not good enough. The number of wins may have been fairly static; the manner of those victories (and of the draws and losses) has deteriorated significantly.Dublin4 wrote:Gerry Thornley makes the point in the Times this morning, in defence of Kiss, that if Ulster beat Leinster on Saturday you will have 14 wins this season, the same as last year. So the stats might not be all that bad for Kiss.
Changing coaches is an all too easy reaction. You are getting Gibbes. You should wait and see how the Gibbes/Kiss combo works for a few months before reaching conclusions.
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jean valjean
- Chancellor to the King
- Posts: 3204
- Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:03 pm
Re: KISS OUT
I say it every game but we very rarely turnover ball from the opposition. When they have the ball u can guarantee to settle down for multiply phases as we just don't have the breakdown skills of the other top teams. Rory and chad are on the wane and rarely play plus reidy is our top tackler (also best in league) which stops him being a poacher. Unless gibbes can turn this around we will still be the eternal bridesmaids.
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
Re: KISS OUT
excellent post (as usual), Neil. Always value your well-thought takes on things UR.
to pick up on one point - we should be excited about Gibbes getting his hands on the like of Treadwell, Ross Kane, and, to a lesser extent, Herring, McCall, and Iain Henderson, Herring and McCall have gone backwards this season, and Treadwell and Kane as yet don't appear to be affected by the curse of mediocrity that affects so many promising Ulster players. naturally a big part of development is minutes in important games.
Treadwell I would go so far as to say is the one major positive of this season. Reidy has again been consistently very good excellent and is unfortunate not to have his skills maximised by a stronger pack.
Dublin4 - I read GT's article this morning and marvelled at the fact that by the last paragraph he seemed pretty disinterested in his own argument: I can't say I blame him. The points differentials between seasons isn't tremendously relevant, I'd counter. The league isn't necessarily strengthening and Ulster's failure to target wins consistently throughout the season has once again left them hoking for huge, high-performance wins prior to play-off time.
By and large I agree that Kiss should get some time to build with Gibbes and Peel, particularly the former. He may be energised and challenged by the new guys. However if Gibbes' arrival is part of a larger plan by which Kiss is transitioned out, then on the basis of the last 12 months in particular I won't be tearful.
to pick up on one point - we should be excited about Gibbes getting his hands on the like of Treadwell, Ross Kane, and, to a lesser extent, Herring, McCall, and Iain Henderson, Herring and McCall have gone backwards this season, and Treadwell and Kane as yet don't appear to be affected by the curse of mediocrity that affects so many promising Ulster players. naturally a big part of development is minutes in important games.
Treadwell I would go so far as to say is the one major positive of this season. Reidy has again been consistently very good excellent and is unfortunate not to have his skills maximised by a stronger pack.
Dublin4 - I read GT's article this morning and marvelled at the fact that by the last paragraph he seemed pretty disinterested in his own argument: I can't say I blame him. The points differentials between seasons isn't tremendously relevant, I'd counter. The league isn't necessarily strengthening and Ulster's failure to target wins consistently throughout the season has once again left them hoking for huge, high-performance wins prior to play-off time.
By and large I agree that Kiss should get some time to build with Gibbes and Peel, particularly the former. He may be energised and challenged by the new guys. However if Gibbes' arrival is part of a larger plan by which Kiss is transitioned out, then on the basis of the last 12 months in particular I won't be tearful.
Re: KISS OUT
Kiss is the former Ireland defence coach and was the defence coach for Ulster since Jonny Bell left for Gloucester, Barakat was called a "collision " coach whatever the feck that means .Neil F wrote: Let's begin with defence: losing a defence coach and having the new one jump ship halfway through the season isn't optimal but Kiss is a defence coach by trade. The only thing I can think of as a comparison for Ulster's defence is this season is a stupid rugby game I have on my iPad. It's not a great game but, you know, it's a rugby game for the iPad... Anyway... In this game, the optimal defensive tactic is basically to let the opposition run past you in midfield; the ballcarrier then gets isolated when you tackle him with your fullback and gives away a penalty. That has been what Ulster's defensive system has looked like to me, this season. It works in a stupid iPad game. It doesn't work in real rugby... The number of missed first up tackles, particularly in midfield, are an embarrassment.
Your description of defence is spot on though and is perhaps Kiss is getting his ideas from the same ipad game
“That made me feel very special and underlined to me that Ulster is more than a team, it is a community and a rugby family"
Rory Best
Rory Best
Re: KISS OUT
Have a read of the posts above and offer us a more in-depth defense of Kiss. It isn't about the results or stats, which are terrible anyway. It is the systems in place and selection policy that are crippling the team performance.Dublin4 wrote:Gerry Thornley makes the point in the Times this morning, in defence of Kiss, that if Ulster beat Leinster on Saturday you will have 14 wins this season, the same as last year. So the stats might not be all that bad for Kiss.
Changing coaches is an all too easy reaction. You are getting Gibbes. You should wait and see how the Gibbes/Kiss combo works for a few months before reaching conclusions.
If Gibbes is given full autonomy then I'm happy for Les to take a less hands-on and more administrative type DoR role.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
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UlsterAreBrill
- Initiate
- Posts: 595
- Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:30 pm
Re: KISS OUT
Mostly agree with this Neil however a couple of points may be worth discussing
Neil F wrote:I think it's easy to talk about fine margins and miss the wider picture - we shouldn't be talking about fine margins. There are three good teams in the Pro12 and one of them has been gash this season and were out of the equation before the new year. Ospreys and Scarlets aren't good teams. They're alright. A team with the players available to Ulster shouldn't be relying on fine margins to squeeze into the Top 4 in a season when Glasgow have been as uncompetitive in the league as they were. If Ulster had squeezed into the Top 4 and had the typical away semi-final loss, given the toss they've served on the pitch it should still be decried as not good enough. Let's not forget, this Ulster side lost at home to Bordeaux in the HC...
There are three big problems Ulster have had this season (in order): defence; ball retention; and attack. In other words, Ulster have been weak in all three of the fundamental pillars of the game.
Let's begin with defence: losing a defence coach and having the new one jump ship halfway through the season isn't optimal but Kiss is a defence coach by trade. The only thing I can think of as a comparison for Ulster's defence is this season is a stupid rugby game I have on my iPad. It's not a great game but, you know, it's a rugby game for the iPad... Anyway... In this game, the optimal defensive tactic is basically to let the opposition run past you in midfield; the ballcarrier then gets isolated when you tackle him with your fullback and gives away a penalty. That has been what Ulster's defensive system has looked like to me, this season. It works in a stupid iPad game. It doesn't work in real rugby... The number of missed first up tackles, particularly in midfield, are an embarrassment.
Defence has obviously been poor, not in the forwards but the backs, especially midfield, which is a huge problem. Not sure what has happened Marshall as he was excellent both with ball in hand and in defence last year
Ball retention has been an embarrassment but I think it probably comes from a lack of confidence, as much as anything. Ulster's ball retention has been poor, so they try to do too much of first and second phase ball, which in turn ensures that ball retention is even poorer. Again, the number of unforced handling errors, stupid offloads and wayward passes from Ulster this season has been embarrassing.
And that brings me to attack. It's hard to attack meaningfully when ball retention is so poor but even when Ulster have had long phases of possession, or at least pressure, the conversion rate has often been abysmal. The Ospreys in Saturday was a case in point. It wasn't just that Ulster didn't score; it was that, until Stockdale came on, they didn't even look like scoring. The Osprey's defence was comfortable. In fact, with the exception of Clermont in Ravenhill, any reasonably decent defence has looked comfortable against Ulster this season.
I don't think our ball retention has been poor. I read somewhere that we had something like 70% possession in the second half at the weekend, it's what we do when we make a break or create an overlap which is the problem, and at times I really think that we sometimes miss the top level smarts in attack to be a convincing team. It seems that in attack the team is completely lost on idea (partly down to poor coaching) so all they know is to try the speculative offload and so on,
because aside from going wide early or trying the inside ball, that's all they know what to do
A lot of this comes from selections. In no other country and probably in no other province would Stockdale sit on the bench whilst Gilroy showponies his way around the pitch, whilst Tommy Bowe couldn't catch a cold in an infection diseases unit and where Trimble has spent most of the season on the sidelines. In a few countries, I can imagine Stockdale would have already played international rugby... All of this happens at the same time when Gilroy gets his hands on the ball in midfield with men outside and is already seeing himself pirouetting to the tryline and tries to dance through 12 covering defenders before, predictably, being smashed to the ground, halting momentum and making it difficult for support players to get there because the decision is so illogical. Ulster are easy to defend against because their patterns are easy to read and selections have gone with players who make that even easier. At least McCloskey stands a chance of breaking a tackle in a rigid move or from static ball... Kiss, one way or another, is solely responsible for weak selections. The rest, he deserves something of a pass on until next season and new coaches are in place.
Agreed, Stockdale deserves to be capped internationally and should have been starting since Christmas, just think if you even took away half his tries we'd be potentially bottom 6 somewhere. Slightly harsh on Gilroy perhaps who can be a very good player with good coaching, see the Italy game. At least at times he can break the line and score a try, Stockdale aside none of our outside backs seem to be able to do that. McCloskey can make a break but the problem with that is none of the backs have the intelligence to see a potentially break and get on his shoulder. I don't feel we're using him enough either in terms of what he can do - when he broke on the scene he was creating gaps by offloading for fun, now it seems he makes the break, gets his arms free to keep the ball alive then remembers he has to just take the contact to recycle the ball. With the talent we have, that's not how we should be playing.
That said, my own patience is wearing thing. More so because of what is observable, even from how Kiss deals with the media. The identification of games that are "must win" versus games that aren't is the most fecking stupid thing I've ever heard a coach say. The drastic swings in Ulster's performances between what they served up against Clermont or Glasgow in Belfast compared to what they served up against Treviso and Cardiff, surely, come in part from the attitudes that are instilled as a result of this kind of logic. It would also explain why Ulster were so dire in the dead rubber against Bordeaux... The other thing is selections. I'm not talking about changing 10+ players for the away trip to Oyonnax last season, which was stupid in a different way but perhaps, also, passable as a calculated gamble that didn't work out. I'm talking about why Ludik has gone missing, despite being the player of the season before Christmas; why Stockdale sits on the bench three weeks out of four watching Gilroy prancing into tackles, or Bowe failing to catch the ball; why a young second row like Treadwell, who looks more and more like the real deal and could be one of the few positive notes from this season, was overlooked early on for a massively out-of-form Franco van der Merwe, or indeed why Franco has subsequently been sidelined when O'Connor hasn't done much of note in a long time... These things add up and while I can understand the desire for consistency in selection, given Kiss' incapacity to pick the same combinations week-on-week early in the season, that shouldn't come at the expense of mediocrity. Perhaps more damming than anything else, it seems to me that Kiss may have written this season off much earlier than many on here... But all that should do, if so, is heap the pressure on him to achieve something next season and to hit the ground running.
Kiss has some byes, though, as far as I am concerned. With forwards, the academy and development systems in Ulster clearly aren't doing their job. There is a very high likelihood that there will be no players in Ulster's preferred pack during the international windows that came through systems in Ulster. I've no problem with Ulster going anywhere to boost the strength of the team through Irish qualified players from there; but this, in turn, creates significant stresses on those players because it is not a substitute for a pool of talent that is almost as good and can actually step in. Kiss might also have a bye with the injury record at Ulster but there's I'm less sure. Do Ulster suffer so many lower limb injuries through bad luck, poor S&C or through the way players are asked to play, or from how much they are? If you'd asked me at the start of this season, I wasn't overoptimistic about what Ulster would achieve but I wouldn't have predicted how pathetic most of the performances have been. Had Ulster at least looked like they were going forward, I'd say Kiss deserves the whole of next season to see what he can do. As it is, results and performances need to be delivered early on.
If you see the recent Ireland underage squads they are better than ever in terms of Ulster representation,
so we're finally seeing fruits of the promised improved development system, and word is that a lot of the current academy are/have been dropped to make room for the group coming through the next few years. I could name a whole starting pack of current or probable future academy players that could well make up the most of our pack in the next 4-5 years, which is very promising. However that isn't overly related to the point in hand
Ulster at times this year reminded me of the clueless, directionless side we saw at the end of Mark McCall's tenure. Except that, in defence of McCall, Ulster have a hell of a lot more talent available now than McCall had at his disposal. The same performance in the McCall era with the players Ulster have now would probably equate to a mid table finish, given the comparative strength of the league. That, in itself, is a pretty damming verdict on what Kiss has achieved this season.
Re: KISS OUT
We've has much chance of beating Leinster has I have of becoming the next PopeDublin4 wrote:Gerry Thornley makes the point in the Times this morning, in defence of Kiss, that if Ulster beat Leinster on Saturday you will have 14 wins this season, the same as last year. So the stats might not be all that bad for Kiss.
Changing coaches is an all too easy reaction. You are getting Gibbes. You should wait and see how the Gibbes/Kiss combo works for a few months before reaching conclusions.
In memory of Nevin Spence 1990- 15th Sept. 2012
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
Axel..... 30 October 1973 - 16 October 2016
Pedrie Wannenburg. 2 January 1981 - 22 April 2022.
Re: KISS OUT
Agreed - midfield defence has been woeful. Against Cardiff, it had reached new levels of appalling. In some ways, it's difficult to know why on an individual level - as you say, Marshall last season looked like he was really starting to fulfil his potential - but on a system level, there are some obvious causes. What I find remarkable is that a former international defence coach hasn't been able to put it right!UlsterAreBrill wrote:Defence has obviously been poor, not in the forwards but the backs, especially midfield, which is a huge problem. Not sure what has happened Marshall as he was excellent both with ball in hand and in defence last year
In terms of statistics, though, losing the ball doesn't necessarily turnover possession for long but the rest on field position does a lot of damage. This was Ulster's problem against the Ospreys, rather than possession. Every time they got into good field position, they blew it by committing no men to the ruck. I'd say that Ulster's high possession and low conversion rate, therefore, is about ball retention. Get turned over in the 22 repeatedly and nine times out of ten you'll get the ball back. The possession racks up but the pressure is taken off. Actually, at times on Saturday Ulster reminded me of the Scotland international vintage of about seven or eight years ago when they just couldn't score a try. Scotland's main problem then was too few line breaks, such that when a line break did occur, none of the supporting players expected it to happen and were in the wrong place to offer the required support. Ulster had exactly the same problem on the few times they managed to break the Ospreys line.UlsterAreBrill wrote:I don't think our ball retention has been poor. I read somewhere that we had something like 70% possession in the second half at the weekend, it's what we do when we make a break or create an overlap which is the problem, and at times I really think that we sometimes miss the top level smarts in attack to be a convincing team. It seems that in attack the team is completely lost on idea (partly down to poor coaching) so all they know is to try the speculative offload and so on, because aside from going wide early or trying the inside ball, that's all they know what to do
It's not the first time I've been accused of being harsh on Gilroy but I think we need to be realistic about where he is, for all his talent. He has nearly always been anonymous in the first half of the season and has sprung to life during the 6 Nations window when opposition teams are weak. In a number of ways, I think this has flattered to deceive because he scores a lot of tries against poor opposition (see: Italy). I am increasingly frustrated by Gilroy because I have seen the talent there. But let's not forget that it's been almost seven years since his debut. He most certainly has not lived up to the promised he showed back then. His decision-making, certainly, has not developed at all. These are things that Ulster fans long criticised both Earls and Zebo (quite rightly) for but the same (and more) applies to the Gilroy we've seen this season.UlsterAreBrill wrote:Agreed, Stockdale deserves to be capped internationally and should have been starting since Christmas, just think if you even took away half his tries we'd be potentially bottom 6 somewhere. Slightly harsh on Gilroy perhaps who can be a very good player with good coaching, see the Italy game. At least at times he can break the line and score a try, Stockdale aside none of our outside backs seem to be able to do that. McCloskey can make a break but the problem with that is none of the backs have the intelligence to see a potentially break and get on his shoulder. I don't feel we're using him enough either in terms of what he can do - when he broke on the scene he was creating gaps by offloading for fun, now it seems he makes the break, gets his arms free to keep the ball alive then remembers he has to just take the contact to recycle the ball. With the talent we have, that's not how we should be playing.
Where I think you are right is that this is a problem that isn't specific to Gilroy. In fact, it seems to befall every talented young back that comes into Ulster's first-team squad. Initial promise, then some years of stagnation or even regression, then a sudden uptick in performance. It has happened to all of Jackson, Gilroy and (Luke) Marshall; but also, to Andrew Trimble, to Tommy Bowe and even to Paddy Wallace. At the same time, I think there needs to be some individual responsibility and I think Gilroy's lack of progression is the most alarming. Last season, I'd have dropped him at times for Scholes; this season, I can't imagine the frustration Stockdale, who still has a lot to learn, must be feeling!
This I am glad to hear and I live in hope that it does come to pass. Not every player that comes through the academy can, or even needs, to be a world beater but having guys at least capable of stepping into the squad would be an advancement. Next year, as I said, during the international windows, one could anticipate that John Andrew and Chris Henry will be the only Ulster-born forwards in an international window 23. That is an obvious concern, although is also something that goes well beyond Les Kiss.UlsterAreBrill wrote:If you see the recent Ireland underage squads they are better than ever in terms of Ulster representation so we're finally seeing fruits of the promised improved development system, and word is that a lot of the current academy are/have been dropped to make room for the group coming through the next few years. I could name a whole starting pack of current or probable future academy players that could well make up the most of our pack in the next 4-5 years, which is very promising. However that isn't overly related to the point in hand
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Re: KISS OUT
We were shyte last year tooDublin4 wrote:Gerry Thornley makes the point in the Times this morning, in defence of Kiss, that if Ulster beat Leinster on Saturday you will have 14 wins this season, the same as last year. So the stats might not be all that bad for Kiss.
Changing coaches is an all too easy reaction. You are getting Gibbes. You should wait and see how the Gibbes/Kiss combo works for a few months before reaching conclusions.
Nice of the IRFU paid shill to mention us though and come to Les' defence
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Re: KISS OUT
An attempt at humour..
Talking with a work colleague from Cork, he was commenting that Leinster often have slow starts to matches. My 'witty' response was that, like Leinster, we have slow starts as well, but in fairness the last quarters aren't fantastic and the bits in the middle ain't no Usain Bolt's either, modesty does not prevent me from saying that he laughed for five minutes, me thinks we deserved it!
Talking with a work colleague from Cork, he was commenting that Leinster often have slow starts to matches. My 'witty' response was that, like Leinster, we have slow starts as well, but in fairness the last quarters aren't fantastic and the bits in the middle ain't no Usain Bolt's either, modesty does not prevent me from saying that he laughed for five minutes, me thinks we deserved it!