Ulster Rugby - driven into the ground

[Ulster throw in]

soo many experts.......


I haven't read so much pompus tripe on this site for a long time

I think you all highlighted the wrong part so I have rectified it for you....

My only comment is that Sir you are either a liar or you can't read, for if you came on here in any sort of a regular fashion you would find we are all experts in many different forms of tripe.

[ulsterrugby4life]

My only comment is that Sir you are either a liar or you can't read, for if you came on here in any sort of a regular fashion you would find we are all experts in many different forms of tripe.

agreeded

[jackthelad]

you all start off from a platform of part information, speculation and half truths - very dangerous!

Absolutely - there can be a lot of rumours and speculation taken as fact on here...

That's right. I heard a rumour that Ulster had dropped 34 points out of the last possible 40 in the ML. Just goes to show you how you can be misled.

It's mostly borne out of frustration at what might have been if the team had had a bit more luck and a bit more clinical rugby so we tend to take it out on what we percieve to be the weak links. Some things are beyond the control of the coaches and managers. They don't make Caldwell a card magnet. They can't make NOC a goal kicker although a week or two with a good kicking coach like Dave Aldred might. The coaches can't give him the ability to pass the ball. At his age if he can't then he never will.

Many other things are their responsibility. Poor selection week in and out, poor signings. How many players from overseas have Ulster signed who have never even got a game or at best a game or two. Some have been injured like Horua but a whole raft have been next to useless as pro players. There has been a continual series of rumours and reports of strife between players. This indicates a weak management. A seeming lack of self-belief on the pitch leading to possible wins becoming losses etc...al things that have been well aired, some more than others.

However it is also about more than the Ulster team. There is a gathering groundswell out there among those both paid and unpaid about the increasingly shambolic way in which rugby is being run at senior and at lower levels. Lip service only is paid for instance to schools and club underage rugby outside of those who compete in the School's Cup. Only 35% of young males attend those schools. 65% are virtually ignored and no support is offered in real terms to those coaches who give up their time to make it work. When Connacht now have more teams in the top division than Ulster it is time to look at what has gone wrong.

At a time when rugby is at it's greatest ever popularity in Ireland it seems to have been holed below the waterline in Ulster. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, revenue from Ulster rugby helped keep the game going in other provinces. At the inception of the Celtic League Munster used to get 3, to 5,000 spectators in a ground that was in worse shape and had a smaller capacity than Ravenhill. Leinster played on a mud heap with a capacity of 7,000. Connacht couldn't win a game against a bunch of blind, one legged seamstresses. Things have changed. Ulster won the ERC, the Celtic Cup, The Celtic League, were runners up twice and third once. Up to 2006/7 they had won more games and scored more tries than any other team. They had the highest average attendances. No team wanted ever to come here and play. The players need our support more than ever but those in the background who have administered the full speed collision with the iceberg can't be allowed to go down with the ship. Actually I get the feeling they'd kick the women and children out of the lifeboats so they could run the rescue mission.

A close friend of mine who is among the paid coaching staff at UR told me a of a situation a few years back when he was coaching 5 school teams where he taught, two under age teams outside of that and was also coach at that time to the 1sts squad of an AIL One side. There was an Ulster game on at Ravenhill and he paid his entry dues like the rest of us. As he was walking past the committee box he looked up and saw Ian Graham, Joey Miles, Ernie Davis,Cecil, Ken Reid and the rest of the drogues all swanning about having done phuque all for years and getting the nose-in-trough treatment while he and all the other guys who keep the thing going have to pay to do so. Cecil started haranguing him from the box with a total load of nonsense. It was a salutary lesson and one that he has never forgotten. The fact that he has kept going speaks volumes for his dedication. The fact that those guys who haven't died are still there says it all about Ulster Rugby.

[OAWUF]

RHH - ifs, buts, maybes, what ifs, rumours and reports!!!!

[OAWUF]

There you go again RHH - do you actually know what went on with Clint and why Ulster Rugby are persisting with O'Connor apart from what you have heard of coarse

Nice to see one positive note at the end - you report that would be a great signing at this stage - what will your opinion be this time next year if he doen't work out! - bad management decision, shouldn't have bought him, someone needs sacked, Ulster Rugby are being driven into the ground!!!

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

coarse

no need to be coarse now dude...
kids visit this site u know (or so fermain keeps telling me)

[Bart S]

There you go again RHH - do you actually know what went on with Clint and why Ulster Rugby are persisting with O'Connor apart from what you have heard of coarse

Possible options for persisting with NOC (more speculation anyway ):-

- BMcL and co think he's a decent long term prospect and/or is the best option we have. If that's the case then RHH disagreeing with that is hardly controversial.

- IH has done something and is being punished for it. Possible I suppose

- This is an IRFU request. Seems strange in that it wasn't asked for before but is now, when he have 2 good optoins in this position at international level.

Anyway, he's been dropped for Glasgow.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Oh... and Ulster are not just as BRILL as I would like them at the minute but I think they are getting there so less of the smart a**e ill informed and down right inaccurate claptrap!

Thanks

I defend the right of anyone on this forum to post "smart a**e ill informed and downright inaccurate claptrap"

It's what the forum's about. Whether others read, believe or are taken in by smart a**e ill informed and downright claptrap is their problem, but I believe we (and you) should be allowed to post it.

So, following my own argument, I also defend your right to call for less of it ..... I think!

[OAWUF]

Ulster have and are struggling on the pitch for the last four matches - not enough to merit the analysis offered on this thread!

I don't know what you know, or not, as the case may be but if you know anything you must agree the changes in coaching, management and marketing is taking UR in a different direction and has improved, albeit slowly and with many restrictions that many of the other ML clubs don't have.

Therefore a bit of patience in the new regime (more than 1 season) would be reasonable? Not calls for a complete restructuring in this thread along with the aragance shown.

I left a word there for you mister spell check!

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Ulster have and are struggling on the pitch for the last four matches - not enough to merit the analysis offered on this thread!

I don't know what you know, or not, as the case may be but if you know anything you must agree the changes in coaching, management and marketing is taking UR in a different direction and has improved, albeit slowly and with many restrictions that many of the other ML clubs don't have.

Therefore a bit of patience in the new regime (more than 1 season) would be reasonable? Not calls for a complete restructuring in this thread along with the aragance shown.

I left a word there for you mister spell check!

Mister spell check or mister grammar policeman?

[darkside lightside]

Ulster have and are struggling on the pitch for the last four matches - not enough to merit the analysis offered on this thread!

the last 4 matches are not the reason I wrote what I wrote, frustration/concern about the way this club is being managed has been a consistent theme for years now... That said, the last couple of months kind of broke my spirit a bit - around Christmas time I was about to post a topic entitled 'B McL - lucky?', but decided against it in the interests of cutting the guy a bit of slack. since then all i've heard on here about our recruitment/players leaving/management, as well as (once again) a calamitous second-half-of-season loss of form has just filled me with despair...

I will say this - I don't have any access to the inside story - so I'm willing to concede that despite any outward evidence, there is a master-plan being rolled out as we speak, the IRFU has been an engaged and effective stakeholder all along, the new CEO has all kinds of plans, and that our upward curve starts right here. I would love more than anything for this to be the case. But honestly, right now, I just have this deadening feeling of history repeating.

I don't know what you know, or not, as the case may be but if you know anything you must agree the changes in coaching, management and marketing is taking UR in a different direction and has improved

I know nothing, but I very much remain to be convinced. I haven't heard a dicky-bird about anything from Logan - on-field, off-field, recruitment, stadium, nowt - since that bizarre 'best in the world' statement... what I have seen/heard since is: disastrous slide in form and chaotic-sounding squad management.. plus ca change...

albeit slowly and with many restrictions that many of the other ML clubs don't have.

e.g.??? (by way of preface I have yet to hear a decent example of this, despite various whinges from various UR heads over the years)

[Bart S]

We keep hearing about how we can't compete with Munster and Leinster because of the tax breaks etc. That may be so, but all that explains is why we can't compete with 2 of the top 3 or 4 teams in Europe. What about the fact that we don't seem to be able to compete with most of the other teams in the ML, who don't have these tax breaks?

If there's one team with a legitimate claim to being hard done by with "restrictions", it's the team who have reached the semis of the Amlin Cup and at this late stage of the season are only 4 points behind their more priviliged northern cousins in the ML, with a game in hand.

[cables]

We haven't strung 5 wins together since i don't know when

Read on and you soon will. Your gut seems quite good btw.

Year 2006 (across 2005/6 and 2006/7 seasons)

8W, 1D, 3W across all competition.

The 2005/6 season ended 8W, 1D, 1W

Since then - 3W, 1D twice (2008/9 and 2009/10 seasons)

[stickinout]

I'd echo what D/l has said. This is not a 4 game slide, this is a 4 year slide. Since winning the CL we have been languishing at the bottom of the pile every season since then and we are quite frankly an embarassment. We haven't strung 5 wins together since i don't know when, we have once again for the fourth season in a row capitulated after christmas and whilst we're making signings there are, for me at least, serious misgivings about people still involved in running UR. Getting rid of Fat Lad was a bonus, but we're not even really shot of him, and appointing Logan at the expense of either Mr Cable and Wireless or Mr Clements Coffee was another faux pas. I also have serious misgivings about Humphs ability as an Operations Manager.

These things will ultimately, over a period of time work themselves out for better or worse. I just hope, like the majority of supporters it does in fact work out for the better but i'd fear that it, like the Mike Reid debacle, will not have such a happy ending.

I have to agree with RHH that it's not a four game slide but would suggest the slide started when Ulster clubs stopped seriously challenging for the AIL 1 Championship. We have a dearth of local talent and clubs that can not compete at AIL level. What went wrong? How can we explain that UR is on a downward trend and has been for a long while when Leinster, Munster and indeed Connacht Rugby are on the up and up?

As for the management side, just when we need new ideas and techniques to help the team improve their performance, what do we get? A management team totally made up of Ulstermen, and mostly from the same era, and not a defensive coach to be seen except for Doak, who has to do it amongst his other duties. What does he know about defence coaching, does he have experience? As defence is such an important part of the game now, this is a mystery. Not good and it doesn't bode well for the future. As for D. Humphries, i have a lot of respect for the man, and i reckon he will be a quick learner and will ultimately bring us forward but I have to admit that i'm a little worried that our organisation isn't based on the model followed by other more successful clubs. One other point, it's been put about on this forum that he's on 140 k a year, if that's true, it's not bad for starting a job you don't have much experience in. All i can say is that I hope he intends to stay around for the long run for the sake of UR.

[mikerob]

Out of interest cables, if you have a moment and are so inclined, could you compile a little spread sheet comparing finishing position with average attendance of the ML teams over the past 3/4 seasons. It'd make interesting reading and I suspect it will illustrate that despite being at the foot of the table for the majority of this time our attendances will be close to top-4.

For the ML, Ulster's figures are:
05/06 - 1st in ML, average ML attendance 9182, 1st in ML attendance
06/07 - 5th in ML, average ML attendance 10207, 2nd in ML attendance
07/08 - 9th in ML, average ML attendance 9661, 2nd in ML attendance
08/09 - 8th in ML, average ML attendance 9085, 3rd in ML attendance
09/10 - 8th in ML, average ML attendance 9195, 4th in ML attendance (to date)

So despite the league position going from top to almost bottom, the attendances have remained remarkably steady - a testament to the fortitude of the Ulster rugby-going public!

But in the attendance table, Ulster has been overtaken by successful clubs that have moved to new and modern facilities.
- Munster is currently averaging 17948 in the ML, despite a number of games being played in Cork
- Leinster is currently averaging 15323
- Cardiff is currently averaging 10635

With a degree of success on the pitch, and larger and modern facilities, I see no reason why Ulster could not increase attendances by at least 50%. The fundamentals are all there - population in greater Belfast area, no other established professional sport, regular games against Irish and international competition, high profile....