Irish Rugby Myth-buster

[darkside lightside]

Irish Rugby Myth No. 1: Ireland has a particularly small player pool.
A favourite excuse/get-out clause for people who like to downplay Ireland’s chances, and seek the comfort of underdog status. Unfortunately, even if there is a link between total player numbers and international potential (of which more later), the facts disobligingly run counter to this, with Ireland having more registered players overall than Australia and New Zealand, not to mention far more than Wales and Scotland.

Looking at just senior players, Ireland have circa 25k registered, in the same ballpark as NZ and Wales, and somewhat less than Australia. England, France and SA all have over 100k senior players registered. Of course, the first thing that this shows is that registered player numbers is not necessarily a good indicator of international success – think of England 2004-2010, and the fact that NZ have been consistently beating all comers for the last few years.

I think the most relevant factor is coaching, from an early age. Player numbers within a given country are a very broad-based pyramid, with the selection pool for international sides in all nations a very small slice at the top, of maybe 100-200 players. The calibre of these top players will largely depend on the quality of coaching that they have received from an early age. The main reason IMO for NZ’s success in the last number of years is that their handling skills, their awareness of space and running lines, and efficiency in the contact area – all coached skills – are excellent.

Irish rugby should stop trying to try to find cover in underdog status, and recognise that we have the player numbers that at least offers us the critical mass we need to have an elite group of professional players to enable us to be competitive with any other nation out there. The powers that be should look long and hard at the standard of underage coaching, to ensure that the right things are being focused on. Other things arguably need to change – the underage system in Munster doesn’t appear to be delivering at the minute, the schools systems in Leinster and Ulster are arguably too narrow-based, and more thought should be given to an interim level between the provinces and AIL.

[darkside lightside]

Irish Rugby Myth No. 2: Ireland has had a ‘golden generation’ in the noughties
There is a temptation to look at how bad Ireland were in the ‘90s, and how relatively good in the ‘00s, and to attribute the difference to a freak, one-off generation of good players. The more I think about it, the more a mis-reading of what actually happened this seems to be.

The first point is that it ignores the advent of professionalism. Prior to this, the disparity in player numbers between France and England and the rest did make a difference – without professional structures to readdress the balance, Ireland with its relatively weak club structure generally sent out teams who were smaller, slower and less technically adept, and the contests were generally pretty uneven.

The professional era didn’t commence like a light being switched on. But between the mid-‘90s and 2000, by luck and good judgment, Ireland had landed on a structure which is actually pretty well-suited to its needs. Players who had gone overseas to play pro rugby had started to filter back, seeing a future in Ireland. The first generation of young guys to leave school during the professional era started breaking into the provincial teams – bigger, stronger and better technically than those they were replacing. These players were now getting exposure to high-level club rugby, playing against the French and English guys in contests which a decade earlier would have been man against boy.

The provinces were successful to a greater or lesser degree, having stolen a march on the Welsh who wasted time and energy in their club configuration, and the Scots who found it impossible to translate a thriving club scene to a professional provincial scene. And this success translated to better international results.

But this was the result of the professionalisation of preparation and coaching – not of a freak crop of exceptional players. Looking back at the last decade, the two names that stand out are POC and BOD, and they were and are very fine players. However they were surrounded by players who weren’t necessarily exceptional – just professionals who had worked very hard on their game, and punched their weight. I’m thinking of Dempsey, Maggs, Horan, MOK, Foley. And in a couple of areas of the pitch, Ireland had very little, never mind exceptional players – scrum-half and tight-head come to mind. Compare some of the players with more recent names – Foley was a fantastic organiser, but as athletes Heaslip and Ferris are at another level.

Even BOD – look at him in that France game where he scored the hat-trick, he’s a skinny kid, he missed a load of tackles that season, and couldn’t kick – within a couple of seasons by dint of hard work and training, he was one of the most complete and defensively sound centres in the world. POC is well known as a training and fitness junkie, his physique didn’t just happen by accident.

To pin the succes in the noughties in terms of results (obviously we still didn’t actually win anything of note until ’09…) on some mythical ‘golden generation’ seems to me to be a negative and defeatist view – that we only knew success because of a freak crop of players, and we’re now destined to sink back into mediocrity… It’s nonsense – we knew success because we stumbled upon a professional set-up that largely works. We know what is possible – having provincial sides successful at the highest levels, and an international side that’s at least competitive with the best (in spite of long periods of sub-optimal coaching) – so let’s hold our coaches and players accountable to these standards, and not offer them some cheap cop-out because an imagined ‘golden generation’ is over…

[brianc]

DL, ffs get a life!!! The simple facts are that as a country where rugby is no where near our national sport we do pretty well!! Of course we should always be analysing coaching/structures & all the other stuff you bleather on about, but do you know that we arer not doing that??

Shouldn't you be spending at least a wee bit of time trying to sort out the mess your industry has made of the entire feckin world, rather than trying to win some award for the most dull, boring post/crusade in the history of the board.

[fermain]

Hang on there Brian, I quite like analysis and opinions on this board so I applaud DSLS for attempting to open a debate on something which he has not only put some thought into, but has shared those opinions with the rest, so rather than sleg off, either ignore it, or join in. Simple. Too many people like to have a go at others for reasons detrimental to open debate and discussion.

To look at both the points though, are you not contradicting yourself with 1, and 2?
In 1 saying that we need to look at our coaching structure to improve our national/ provincial/ international performances, and then in 2, saying that our golden era is because of good coaching and superior training than previous years.

The coaches who provided this quality are pretty much still around, so the quality shouldn't have lessened, and the national coachng at lower levels has gone from strength to strength thanks to the positive work from the IRFU and provincial clubs working from the Long Term Player Development (LTPD) pathway etc etc

[MightyRearranger]

With regard to the playing numbers point I think it's overly simplistic. The reason for the huge difference between us and someone like New Zealand (although we might have the same number of adult players) is the culture. At lunchtime in schools and when you head to the park in the Ireland people tend to kick a football about, whereas in New Zealand they'll be playing touch rugby.

Even if the coaching standards were exactly the same in the two countries that extra ball exposure will (and does) tell in the skill levels of the young players.

One thing I think Ireland does have going for it though is the huge crossover between rugby and gaelic football in terms of skill sets. The seasons don't really overlap and I think if a lot more people played both then it'd benefit both games.

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

so rather than sleg off, either ignore it, or join in. Simple. Too many people like to have a go at others for reasons detrimental to open debate and discussion.

it's a disgrace if you ask me, and damages the site as a whole
#cutoutthecrapgentlemen

[mikerob]

One thing I think Ireland does have going for it though is the huge crossover between rugby and gaelic football in terms of skill sets. The seasons don't really overlap and I think if a lot more people played both then it'd benefit both games.

There was an article about this in the Irish Indo recently with an interview with Mike McGurn who used to be Ireland fitness coach and is now fitness coach of Armagh (?) GAA. McGurn was quite dismissive about the ability of GAA players to cross into pro rugby saying the GAA players simply didn't have the physicality to compete and they would need to be on a pro rugby physical training regime for a few years to get up to the level required.

McGurn also said that far too many GAA players don't even have the skills to play GAA as there were too many "gym monkeys" with poorly designed training programs that neglected skills.

So crossovers between GAA to pro rugby really needs to happen at an early age (mid-teens) when the player with the GAA background can get some proper rugby coaching and get onto the pro rugby "production line" which seems to be starting younger and younger.

[darkside lightside]

Shouldn't you be spending at least a wee bit of time trying to sort out the mess your industry has made of the entire feckin world.

but I'm not a politician, or a property developer...

[darkside lightside]

Hang on there Brian, I quite like analysis and opinions on this board so I applaud DSLS for attempting to open a debate on something which he has not only put some thought into, but has shared those opinions with the rest, so rather than sleg off, either ignore it, or join in. Simple. Too many people like to have a go at others for reasons detrimental to open debate and discussion.

To look at both the points though, are you not contradicting yourself with 1, and 2?
In 1 saying that we need to look at our coaching structure to improve our national/ provincial/ international performances, and then in 2, saying that our golden era is because of good coaching and superior training than previous years.

The coaches who provided this quality are pretty much still around, so the quality shouldn't have lessened, and the national coachng at lower levels has gone from strength to strength thanks to the positive work from the IRFU and provincial clubs working from the Long Term Player Development (LTPD) pathway etc etc

Thanks Fermain I'm not sure that 1 & 2 are contradictory - what I'm trying to say in both is that if Ireland under-perform, we can't take what is in my view the easy way out and say 'well we have hardly any players anyway, and we were only decent in the last decade because of the "golden generation", so we're doing all right for lowly underdogs blah blah' - it might feel nice to take the pressure off that way, but unfortunately if you look at the facts, neither of those positions stand up.

I think the quantum leap in performance between, broadly, the '90s and the '00s is largely to do with professionalisation - obviously other nations have moved forward as well, so our relative progress with respect to other nations will differ. But the systems we have in place are largely working, and have brought us this far - but are still capable of being improved. There is still a gap between us and the very best, but it is a bridge-able gap, down to coaching, which is within the power of those who work in rugby in Ireland to work on.

[brianc]

but I'm not a politician, or a property developer...

, good response!!

BTW, didn't think I was slagging as Fermain seems to think, , just think it has become a bit of a crusade for you! I dont agree with most of your argument, & I also have this very simple theory that in very league in every sport, 1 team will win & 1 team will finish bottom, most of your theory could apply in some way to any of the hundreds of millions of teams who dont finish first in their respective league.

I also dont like the "golden generation" tag very much either, but surely you must admit we have had several players whose like dont see very often, (BOD, POC, ROG, (oops, got carried away there ))?

Anyway, hope you didnt see it as slagging, now get back to funding some property developers

[brianc]

Hang on there Brian, I quite like analysis and opinions on this board so I applaud DSLS for attempting to open a debate on something which he has not only put some thought into, but has shared those opinions with the rest, so rather than sleg off, either ignore it, or join in. Simple. Too many people like to have a go at others for reasons detrimental to open debate and discussion.

Wind yer neck in or I will bribe one of the other mods to ban ye!! DL & I have a bit of a history of bantering each other. BTW, my main point was that this post was hardly "opening a debate", rather continuing one which seems to have become DL's lifetime ambition.

[darkside lightside]

brianc - don't worry no hard feelings but (and not trying to be funny) I don't know what you mean by this being a crusade for me??

I suppose, just to be clear, I should say that when I'm talking about coaching etc I'm talking about coaching as a whole throughout the country, from mini-rugby to schools to clubs - not the current national coach (that's a different matter).

[brianc]

I totally agree we should ALWAYS be looking at how we do things, & I sincerely hope we are. Interesting conversation with a fairly senior Leinster guy, also involved with IRFU. He was telling me Leinster have just commissioned an external review of ALL aspects of the game in the province, amateur & professional. This is at a time when they are as good as they have ever been. He was contrasting this to Turnips, who have sat on back on their past achievements & surrounded the pitch with former "greats", (Galway etc), & now appear to be reaping the "rewards" associated with that approach.

So I dont think we disagree that we should always be looking at how we do things, I just think that we have done extremely well in the recent past, (because or in spite of EOS & DK!!!), & as I said we have been punching way above our weight at world level.

PS Fermain, you happy now

[Rooster]

I totally agree we should ALWAYS be looking at how we do things, & I sincerely hope we are. Interesting conversation with a fairly senior Leinster guy, also involved with IRFU. He was telling me Leinster have just commissioned an external review of ALL aspects of the game in the province, amateur & professional. This is at a time when they are as good as they have ever been. He was contrasting this to Turnips, who have sat on back on their past achievements & surrounded the pitch with former "greats", (Galway etc), & now appear to be reaping the "rewards" associated with that approach.

So I dont think we disagree that we should always be looking at how we do things, I just think that we have done extremely well in the recent past, (because or in spite of EOS & DK!!!), & as I said we have been punching way above our weight at world level.

PS Fermain, you happy now

You still here after telling him to wind his neck in

[brianc]

You still here after telling him to wind his neck in

Ha, life on the edge