ROMAN POITE - GREAT SCRUMMAGE EXPERT OR NUMPTY ?

[backawaygoonahead]

Have begun watching the match amongst other things to look at Roman Poite who I had flagged up as our greatest nightmare when he was appointed and whilst it would be silly to suggest he made the difference between winning and losing, there were a few things I & m'boys noted at the game which I wanted to check out.

After Simons's no try resulting the scrum was turned to give Saints an easy escape route - penalty against Ulster. If Ulster wanted to crab the scrum they would have wheeled the other way to pin Dickson to the touchline. odd

On 20 minutes Ulster take the ball into contact and Poite bellows, "no hands green" green promptly emerge ball in hand and he plays on. odder despite the fact that Mujati was probably spot on but ref he shouts hands off, hes wrong.

27 minutes the scrum that broke up with a bit of a flare up, when the scrum went down Hartley knee drops on BJ's back free kick for early engagement. Rory tells Poite "first he uses the hand then he knees him."

29 mins Lee Dickson referees the game and Poite gives the pen - missed.

IF ANY PROPS READ THIS: Quinell showed the last penalty before half time and as a scrum ignoramus what I saw was Mujati going too low, his knee & then arm hitting the ground & TC not touching the ground at all. Who broke the bind is questionable. Help me out somebody.

42 mins ridiculous decision on our attacking lineout which was tipped back and gathered by Piennar but given as a knock on.

50 minutes Johann pulls down the jumper, all hell breaks loose (good to see when Lawes was coming in as the hard nut, Johann had him by the throat and was marching him backwards) Poite warns both captains.

51 mins Dan Tuohy pulls down a maul 3 Saints swarm onto him looking for vengeance & Poite does nothing despite his warning.

Saints 2nd try: Last pass of the Ashton to Foden variety forward but officials not quick enough to be up with play to see it. Can't blame them, neither would I have been.

60 minutes immediately from the D'Arcy moment Poite allows Saints to drive the scrum 2 or 3 metres before Dickson fed it into an advancing scrum. odd

67 minutes blatantly crooked throw C Day has to turn his back to the Ulster players to take it. From the ensuing maul the little git wraps his arm around Pedries breathing apparatus, the ball moves on but Wood fancies a bit of Pedrie as well. Despite Poite going over to them he immediately gives a penalty against Ulster 8 metres further up the pitch for offside, eh? How did he see that?

69 minutes Saint Hartley charges down drop out 22 at least 2 metres inside but no penalty. Poite shouts "reset just to make sure about that" - blatant you poite.

70 deliberate knock on while Ulster already playing an advantage - cynical to stop possible attack - yellow card? actually no.

The last 10 minutes was about them playing keep ball.

Now of course I am biased but I couldn't pick up anything that blatantly went in our favour & that might be fair enough as we were not putting them under pressure for a lot of the match but my take is that Poite isn't one bit better than most other non-Scottish international refs and that he is too quick to attach himself to the team who appear physically dominant.

In a match of slight margins every decision makes a difference and we got precious little. Having now watched the game on the box I feel it was one of the best performances of the year for 55-60 minutes hard as some might find that to take & then we wilted in the heat & under pressure from a very tough pack. Lawes played magnificently and there was just too much physical pressure. Would a fit BJ & Stevie have made the difference or indeed having Darren Cave & Deccie Fitz on the bench. we will never know but I suspect it just might.

[rosetintedgoggles]

The family name was originally McToite but was changed to Poite when the family fled to France following the Failed Jacobite rebellion!

Complete Numpty! Where he got his "scrummaging expert" tag from I will never know.

Besides everything else he completely failed, along with his fellow numpties in pink, to sort out Lawes and the Gouger who were continually throwing punches on the ground.

Very very poor refereeing performance from a very over rated referee. IMHO.

[AndyB]

Now of course I am biased but I couldn't pick up anything that blatantly went in our favour & that might be fair enough as we were not putting them under pressure for a lot of the match but my take is that Poite isn't one bit better than most other non-Scottish international refs and that he is too quick to attach himself to the team who appear physically dominant.

The reason we lost was not anything to do with Monsieur Poite but everything to do with the highlighted point in the last sentence above. Saints got on top of us physically and when that happens it's hard to win.

[backawaygoonahead]

Now of course I am biased but I couldn't pick up anything that blatantly went in our favour & that might be fair enough as we were not putting them under pressure for a lot of the match but my take is that Poite isn't one bit better than most other non-Scottish international refs and that he is too quick to attach himself to the team who appear physically dominant.

The reason we lost was not anything to do with Monsieur Poite but everything to do with the highlighted point in the last sentence above. Saints got on top of us physically and when that happens it's hard to win.

Of course Mr B, you are preaching to the converted on that. I was at pains to point out that this is not a matter of who deserved to win, simply a reflection on M.Poite, an appointment I feared as soon as I heard it. Perhaps you read something into it that was never either there or intended.

[OneMore]

Great breakdown Goon. I have yet to see any of it again, but was viewing on the TV on Sunday - hard to be objective watching it first time round. The impression I got from my first viewing was that they were very niggly and he failed to deal with that in any manner. Not a single card was certainly unusual for a match like that, with everything so heated at times. I think it was a wise move of McGlock to withdraw Tuohy when he did. I picked up on that wheeling of the scrum call that was given against us, when we clearly wheeled it the wrong way (or maybe we didn't wheel it after all?).

The reason we lost was not anything to do with Monsieur Poite but everything to do with the highlighted point in the last sentence above. Saints got on top of us physically and when that happens it's hard to win.

Fine Mr B. Don't think Goon was trying to say we'd have won with a different ref. Also, just because they dominate physically, it doesn't mean they should have penalties awarded unfairly.

OM

[ColinM]

Agreed, they got the ref but the dominating team usually does especially in the tight and at home. I have no problem with that, but am a bit peeved that we got pinged for two crucial forward passes that went backwards and they got away with one that was forward for their second try.

Anyway the way the game went second half i dont htink affected the outcome

[John_e_boy]

As a ref (and front row player myself) I am in 2 minds about the reffing debate. My reffing side of me says:

1 - he's a colleague and we need to stick together.
2 - we all make mistakes and it's very easy to over-analyse using video and slow-mo replays. You can pick up many things with the benefit of hindsight.
3 - the speed of the professional game means it's increasingly tough to keep with all action on the pitch, especially forward passes on the back of sweeping moves upfield.
4 - you cannot see all scrum infringements at once with a single pair of eyes. Impossible.

but then again, as a rugby player/fan and also ref I think

1 - most top-class refs have zero idea of how to manage and spot scrum infringements. I like to think as a player I know and I can manage scrums better. Why can't they.

2 - forward passes are very easy to spot, even from up to 10m behind the line of the pass. You need to simply focus on the pass-givers body shapes since the trajectory of the ball is not so important. The ball must leave the passing players hands and go backwards, just check out their passing style and you can call them up.

3 - Poite's game management is lacking from what I've seen. He doesn't communicate enough, is woeful at the set piece and I simply detest his whiny voice

I think the best of the lot are the South African top refs right now, I hope Ireland get them in the WC group games against Australia and Italy. We have a chance of winning them both if the set piece is reffed properly.

[backawaygoonahead]

As a ref (and front row player myself) I am in 2 minds about the reffing debate. My reffing side of me says:

1 - he's a colleague and we need to stick together. Don't take this badly, but that is one of lifes cowardly conventions that lead to miscarriages of justice and not just on the rugby pitch!! Ever tried to get the truth about a solicitor or doctor or of course teacher, banker, policeman etc etc that you have a barney with from one of their colleagues? - not I hasten to add that I have had one with all of these, just most
2 - we all make mistakes and it's very easy to over-analyse using video and slow-mo replays. You can pick up many things with the benefit of hindsight.
3 - the speed of the professional game means it's increasingly tough to keep with all action on the pitch, especially forward passes on the back of sweeping moves upfield.
4 - you cannot see all scrum infringements at once with a single pair of eyes. Impossible.

but then again, as a rugby player/fan and also ref I think

1 - most top-class refs have zero idea of how to manage and spot scrum infringements. I like to think as a player I know and I can manage scrums better. Why can't they.

2 - forward passes are very easy to spot, even from up to 10m behind the line of the pass. You need to simply focus on the pass-givers body shapes since the trajectory of the ball is not so important. The ball must leave the passing players hands and go backwards, just check out their passing style and you can call them up.

3 - Poite's game management is lacking from what I've seen. He doesn't communicate enough, is woeful at the set piece and I simply detest his whiny voice

I think the best of the lot are the South African top refs right now, I hope Ireland get them in the WC group games against Australia and Italy. We have a chance of winning them both if the set piece is reffed properly.

My purpose in watching the game and studying the role of the ref was that the 6 of us sitting together called most of those incidents as questionable from behind the posts at the sunny end. We had no idea obviously about the forward pass in their "winning try" but had a perfect view of Saints pushing a couple of metres or three before feeding the ball into an advancing 2nd row more than once.

I had been hoping we would get Nigel as ref, Irish teams almost always prosper under him but was in dread when we got Poite given his reputation as picking the winning scrum in the first 10 minutes. I had always known that this was an area of strength for Saints and made our prospects less than good.

I saw Ruan offering him advice on issuing a yellow card and hate to see that but simply because of the known elements of Poite's style believed we were disadvantaged before ko.

This was not about who deserved to win as I am repeatedly pointing out.

I agree about the SA refs and think if I could pick my refs, I'd go for Nigel Owens every time, as we can't pick Alan Lewis who's style and accuracy I like, but thereafter Craig Joubert is about the fairest & best I've seen. Just as long as we don't get that show pony Walsh & fortunately we can't have the massively over-rated and error prone half-surrender monkey - Rolland.

As a front rower & ref you didn't comment on the half-time piece on the last penalty of the 1st half against TC, what did you reckon?

[Rooster]

As a ref (and front row player myself) I am in 2 minds about the reffing debate. My reffing side of me says:

1 - he's a colleague and we need to stick together.
2 - we all make mistakes and it's very easy to over-analyse using video and slow-mo replays. You can pick up many things with the benefit of hindsight.
3 - the speed of the professional game means it's increasingly tough to keep with all action on the pitch, especially forward passes on the back of sweeping moves upfield.
4 - you cannot see all scrum infringements at once with a single pair of eyes. Impossible.

but then again, as a rugby player/fan and also ref I think

1 - most top-class refs have zero idea of how to manage and spot scrum infringements. I like to think as a player I know and I can manage scrums better. Why can't they.

2 - forward passes are very easy to spot, even from up to 10m behind the line of the pass. You need to simply focus on the pass-givers body shapes since the trajectory of the ball is not so important. The ball must leave the passing players hands and go backwards, just check out their passing style and you can call them up.

3 - Poite's game management is lacking from what I've seen. He doesn't communicate enough, is woeful at the set piece and I simply detest his whiny voice

I think the best of the lot are the South African top refs right now, I hope Ireland get them in the WC group games against Australia and Italy. We have a chance of winning them both if the set piece is reffed properly.

Some good thoughts there John_e_boy, you say easy to pick out some more stuff on replays but he had 2 more sets of eyes who seemed to do nothing, blatant punching session in front of us and the assistant totally ignored even though they were directly in his view, POC got cited for less in Thomond Park with same reff.

To say that Poite did not loose us the match is correct in one way and possibly incorrect in another as if he had clamped down on the off the feet shoulder charges at rucks, punching of the ball etc it could have changed the entire way the breakdown went, a few more 3 pointers and perhaps even a man in the bin who will ever know the end result !
He suited Saints style better than ours and that is what I feared from the time he was named, could have been a vastly different game if Owens had been our reff.

[Snipe Watson]

Gooner
Starting such a whinging thread or presenting the opportunity to whinge post match is beneath you.
You may have intended to critique the Poite performance, but it's reading like just a whine about the ref in a game we lost.
I thought the ref had a good game compared to the clampits we often get in the league.

Time to move on, we have a game this week.

[darkside lightside]

I think Andy's probably right, the team dominating possession and putting the heat on physically gets the breaks. Watching live there were a couple of times when I was screaming at Poite - a couple of occasions you heard him say 'No hands green', then the ball popped out their side and he played on.

However look at the run-up to our try - IIRC BJ clears out a ruck with no arms, simply drops the shoulder and goes off his feet - should have been a pen..

[Rooster]

However look at the run-up to our try - IIRC BJ clears out a ruck with no arms, simply drops the shoulder and goes off his feet - should have been a pen..

Saints did it all match and got away with it, perhaps BJ was one of the few on our side playing to Poites rules ?

[backawaygoonahead]

Gooner
Starting such a whinging thread or presenting the opportunity to whinge post match is beneath you.
You may have intended to critique the Poite performance, but it's reading like just a whine about the ref in a game we lost.
I thought the ref had a good game compared to the clampits we often get in the league.Personally I reckon he is not too much of a cut above Andy McPherson

Time to move on, we have a game this week.

Oh dear Snipe, you seem to have your pointy head on this week

Having pointed up Poite weeks ago as a potential problem I am simply interested to know what others thought, particularly that last pen of the first half which was a major item in Sky's half time "frontline" piece. Quinell seemed to think it correct, I can't see/don't know what TC did wrong. I am still interested to get an informed opinion.

Whinging or not, I shall not be deflected by criticism The gentleman's not for turning ! (imagine that spoken in a Grantham accent and a slightly hectoring tone whilst looking down a hawkish nose at the entire world )

[John_e_boy]

I haven't seen anything of the game yet on 't-interweb/tv etc so I will refrain from commenting until they're posted on the UAFC youtube site!



I did see the Hartley grab on Pedrie's face in a maul and thought the ref was disgustingly poor on that one. It was a clear yellow for the kiwi since grabbing someones head from behind is not part of any legal mauling technique I'm aware of. Plus his bitching about being bitten.... christ I'd been tempted to Ashton him one myself if I was Poite!

[John_e_boy]

Don't take this badly, but that is one of lifes cowardly conventions that lead to miscarriages of justice and not just on the rugby pitch!! Ever tried to get the truth about a solicitor or doctor or of course teacher, banker, policeman etc etc that you have a barney with from one of their colleagues? - not I hasten to add that I have had one with all of these, just most

I think we're comparing apples to pears. Solicitors, doctors, teachers and the polis all have codes of conduct to adhere to (you'll notice I've removed b(w)ankers from the list) whereas a referee is still just an official who we are told must be given respect but it's not really codified anywhere. Sure, the IRB laws state he's basically infalillible but that's not the same as a code of conduct when being addressed!