Positives & Negatives: The Magners Semi Final

[againstthehead]

Well, just home from an enjoyable evening in sunny dublin. Was in the North Stand behind the goals so difficult to read a lot into the game but here goes anyway...

Positives
- scrum was a big positive for me. This was Leinsters full pack and they found it tough enough. Fitzy did very well indeed. I'd be incredibly concerned about the leinster scrum V Northampton. On that showing, they will get pulvarised. We didn't even have botha...
- some good hard tackling. In the second half, all I could see were giants of men pounding towards our line and we were putting in some very big hits. We conceded a very soft try but as I said, we were putting in some decent hits on Heaslip, O'Brien and Wright.
- spence handled himself very well. Cracking player. I'd like to see a big south sea islander along with him at 12 - an Umanga to smash it up and create some space in the wide channels.
- we spiced thing up at the start with a few up and unders and put a bit of pressure on the leinster back 3.
- restarts seemed passable - which is a step forward!
- overall, it looked to be a pretty gutsy display and everyone put in 100%. Indeed, when you consider that we were without Ferris, Trimble, PW, BJ Botha, Falloon and Dan Tuohy we didn't do too bad at all, with the first 4 probably being 4 of our best 5/6 players.

Negatives
- basic errors started to do my nut in. Against Northampton we were clinical and kept the error count relatively low. Tonight we just gave away possession soooooo softly. Crooked throws, overthrows, forward passes - grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. very very frustrating.
- would liked to have seen our pack take them on. Not ONE driving maul alll night. We never looked liked breaking their backline down and we had the upper hand at scrum time. Flippin try a maul from 20 metres and see what happens - at least make them think. Likewise we just didn;t have the ball carriers off the rucks to take out the fringes. Same old story of going wide too early.

Overall, a reasonable display but I thought we lacked the spark that I would liked to have seen for such an occasion. As discussed above, we were without some serious experience and I'm probably being a tad harsh. When we went 11-3, I thought we had a glimmer of a chance and I expected us to at least put Leinster under some real pressure. But we gifted away posession and Leinster killed us off.
The scoreline is probably better that I expected - I would have predicted a 35-15 hiding but I'm just a little disapointed that we didn't make Leinster work harder for it - I thought they were in 3rd gear.

Take nothing away from Ulster. We've had a very good campaign and we were beaten by probably the best side in the Northern Hemisphere on their home patch. Our young lads will be all the better for the experience and it gave the fans one last day out for a memorable season.

Roll on September!!!

[Big-al]

I thought Spence was poor, he can't pass. A couple of times we had the overlap and Spence just trucked it up. Not good enough

That Leinster performance tonight wasn't 1 that would make them the best in the NH. They never got out of 2nd gear.

[againstthehead]

I thought Spence was poor, he can't pass. A couple of times we had the overlap and Spence just trucked it up. Not good enough

That Leinster performance tonight wasn't 1 that would make them the best in the NH. They never got out of 2nd gear.

I think the fact that they never got out of 2nd gear and still convincingly beat us, shows how good they are... That said, I do actually think Northampton have a chance next weekend. Northampton play a style different to anything Leinster will have played all season. It's all about forward domination. Leinster will be okay at the breakdown and their carriers will hurt Northampton but they will struggle at the set-piece. A very interesting game on store!

[Bopeep]

Agree about Nevin Spence all over the place gets in the way, good at tackling, but ball greedy.

Paul Marshall someone should have a quite word with him he bounces all over the place wants to play all the positions no wonder he is a sub could not keep that up for 80 minutes.

[Bopeep]

Think there could be a couple of players cited tonight, O'Driscoll for the punch and Best for the trip on Darcy.

[lovesthehardground]

Got up early especially to post this.

Positives
Scrum time. Brilliant. Probably the best 80 minute performance of the season. Even when Cronin came on level of intensity retained.
Tackling/Defence - fairly good. Put a lot of effort into this and managed to slow down a lot of Leinster ball.

Negatives
Looked a bit jaded in attack and a lack of spark all round. Maybe just the end of a very long hard season
Attacking play was poor. Tried the inside pass far too often. Gerry Thornley had highlighted this in the Irish Times and it was obvious to see that Leinster were waiting for it every time. Why didn't we change it?
Far too many basic errors which turned over possession. Knock ons, fwd passes, lineouts etc
Humphreys probably blew any chance of going to RWC. Was he carrying a knock? Looked jaded and not on same wavelength as teamates.
Spence had a very poor game. Chose several wrong decisions in attack. Maybe getting carried away after his try against the Dragons. Back to basics Nevin please!!
Tactics - where do you start. We were up against a better team, away from home. However a lot of their players got injured resulting in frequent substitutions which upset their game plan. But we didn't take advantage. We tried our usual inside passing but were snuffed out. Their defence was excellent but could we have played a bit more territorily and kick behind them? Might have brought their back 3 into the game more? Don't know, but it should have been tried. We were lacking ball carriers. Diack was poor and P3 not much better. Lost out several times at the ruck (Northampton again) with lack of support players. Could we be fitter?? Seems like other teams can out ruck us most games. We could have tried a rolling maul which would have tied in their defense more, and then spread it wide

At the end of the day we were beaten by a better team. If we learn from it then well and good. But we must learn from our mistakes and continue to improve. Next year is massive. We must take another step forward if we are going to be one of the best. We can't stagnate or we'll end up going backwards. Damn this RWC and the disruption it will bring to pre season training/preparation and to the early matches. Hopefully from November on we will see the team continuing on this present upward curve. A lot to be positive about BUT the emphasis has to be on improving.

[promsandwich]

ATH and LTHG, I pretty much agree with both your assessments of last nights game.

Scrum time was a massive bonus for us - I actually thought we had the edge on them, albeit marginally, throughout the game. Court and Deccie were reasonably well on top which was pleasing. What was perhaps more impressive was how we were still able to compete/ get a slight edge when Jerry Cronin and Paddy Mac came on. Fair play to Cronin, he is stepping up every time he is asked to - suddenly we look reasonably well positioned at prop next year well you consider we'll be adding Black and Afoa to the four props on display last night.

Our lineout functioned reasonably well but overall you would have to say not good enough. You will never win at this level if, when you have been able to relieve pressure by getting into the oppositions half courtesy of a penalty, you cannot afford to cough up possession through an overthrow, not straight etc.

Backrow - again I thought our boys were magnificent. Leinster have arguably the best back row in Europe and our boys competed with them for the full 80. Yes, they were punchier with ball in hand and looked more likely to break the gain line, but other than that we competed with them gamely. 1F would have brought a lot to us in the line breaking regard.

iHumph here taking a bit of flack for his defence. Not sure I agree entirely. They targeted him as they were always likely to do but I thought he did ok defensively. Newsflash - he can't and never will be able to tackle like Jonny Wilkinson. Otherwise her performed generally well without being outstanding.

I thought our centres played well. I have read some criticisms of Spence not passing etc. I think there is some merit in those criticisms from last night - he does need to learn when to give the ball early, when to straighten up and give it. However, this was a big occasion and he will should undoubtedly learn from it. Cave played reasonably well and we are well placed at centre over the next few years.

Gilroy and Danielli didn't have too much opportunity to shine but neither lacked commitment or made any mistakes. D'Arcy has been a great signing for us. However I think Payne should give us a better 15 next year, particularly in the tackle.

Overall I thought it was a great performance by us even if the final result was disappointing. There were a number of mitigating factors in defeat but also reasons for optimism:

- Leinster played their best starting 15, they've blown us away twice this season in the first 20 minutes. That didn't happen last night which shows we are progressing as a side
- Leinster's bench on paper was much better than ours which suggested that if it was used correctly they ought to have been able to pull away from us easily later in the game. That didn't happen which shows we are progressing.
- up front we gained parity in all phases save for line breaking and we had the upper hand in the scrum. Not many packs can say that against Leinster this year. Add Stevenson, Black, Afoa, Tuohy, Macklin, McComish and we look well placed to continue to progress up front
- Payne. I like D'Arcy and have been grateful for his contribution this year. However, while he is very pacey, he is prone to losing the ball in contact/ not passing at the right time/ missed tackles. It is hard to imagine that Payne won't improve us significantly
- Poor execution continues to cost us. Last night we defended very well throughout. However, every time we got into Leinsters half with a good attacking platform we inevitable knocked on/ forward passed/ crooked throw etc. If we can decrease our error count by 50-75% in these areas then we keep the pressure on opposition/relieve it on ourselves and should get more points on the board
- Pienaar is pure class
- AT would've helped us a lot last night with his physicality

Overall, an encouraging performance and season. We have improved exponentially this year. We have good young players coming through and have made good signings for next year. Our team spirit appears to be as good as it has been for years. We have a stable coaching and management position. We should be getting a new ground soon. Our team has progressed from fighting to get into the HEC to competing at the top in Europe and the league. We will only get better by learning from the HEC quarters and playing games like last night. An enjoyable season!

[againstthehead]

cracking post prom.

[Cormac]

I thought Spence was poor, he can't pass. A couple of times we had the overlap and Spence just trucked it up. Not good enough

That Leinster performance tonight wasn't 1 that would make them the best in the NH. They never got out of 2nd gear.

I think the fact that they never got out of 2nd gear and still convincingly beat us, shows how good they are... That said, I do actually think Northampton have a chance next weekend. Northampton play a style different to anything Leinster will have played all season. It's all about forward domination. Leinster will be okay at the breakdown and their carriers will hurt Northampton but they will struggle at the set-piece. A very interesting game on store!

You've clearly never seen Racing Metro play. Not sure how Ulster fans can take positives from that game. It was a knockout game and, two long-range penalties apart, Ulster never threatened to score.

[promsandwich]

Not sure how Ulster fans can take positives from that game

Think you need to think again Cormac, here's a few:

1. We were in the semi-final: big step forward from fighting to get into the HEC.
2. We had the upper hand in the scrum.
3. You had your best side, we didn't, but it wasn't game over after 20 minutes.
4. Your bench was better as a result of our injuries, yet you didn't destroy us in the last quarter.
5. Our defence has improved significantly.
6. We have some of the best young backs in the country - Spence, Gilroy
7. We have Paddy Mac.
8. Our high error count relieved pressure on Leinster time and again - you can't imbue talent in players but you can cut out errors.

I'll come back to you if I think of more. The best team won, but not by much and we are getting closer to you game by game. So have a wee think to yourself and try and be objective.

[Dave]

I thought Spence was poor, he can't pass. A couple of times we had the overlap and Spence just trucked it up. Not good enough

That Leinster performance tonight wasn't 1 that would make them the best in the NH. They never got out of 2nd gear.

I think the fact that they never got out of 2nd gear and still convincingly beat us, shows how good they are... That said, I do actually think Northampton have a chance next weekend. Northampton play a style different to anything Leinster will have played all season. It's all about forward domination. Leinster will be okay at the breakdown and their carriers will hurt Northampton but they will struggle at the set-piece. A very interesting game on store!

You've clearly never seen Racing Metro play. Not sure how Ulster fans can take positives from that game. It was a knockout game and, two long-range penalties apart, Ulster never threatened to score.

Cormac perhaps because you're a Leinster supporter and you are expressing the opinion above as you are not used to losing as much as we are , all be it comparitively less so for us this season. I am a relative newcomer to this forum but I have always admired this thread which highlights both positive and negative aspects of each game. I admire the thread because of the sense of balance that it brings. You see when your team loses, we all have a tendency to view the entire performance with a negative bias. Same can be said if your team wins, everything is rosie and the players can do no wrong. This time of analysis is absolutist (is that a word?). In order words it's a binary outlook. The performance is then only viewed good or bad, negating the positive and negative elements. It is possible to look at aspects of our game positively, even we lost and didn't really threaten your try line, such as the scrum performed better than anyone expected.

Honestly we are all just glad that we didn't ship 3 or 4 tries in the first 10 mins ending the game as a contest. We were competitive in the game but simply kept putting the pressure back on ourselves time after time with errors. Like when we tried to run from our own 5m line and knocked-on, and you scored from the resulting scrum. We should have hoofed the ball as far from our try line as we could. Another example, we had a penalty and kicked for a lineout in your 22. We fluff the lineout and end-up conceding a penalty all the way back in our 22!! I'm not saying we could/should have won but without the unforced errors the game would have been a lot closer. Leinster are the best in Europe and we strive to be competitive with them. Hopefully next season will see further improvement from us. Good luck in the Magners and Heiny final

[Snipe Watson]

guys back off Nevin Spence. He was only 21 last month and nobody is claiming he is the finished article. His distribution is not good enough to be a solution at 12 and he gets in the way at ties, but he is a good 13. He will mature next season and be a fine player.

[Bopeep]

If he is old enough to wear the shirt he is old enough to take the flack, are you his Da

[Snipe Watson]

If he is old enough to wear the shirt he is old enough to take the flack, are you his Da

Yes

[UlsterJock]

+ves
There are lots but as the stakes get higher so do the expectations.
Semi final place
Cronin
Muller
Scrum
Pienaar
Atmosphere in North stand (+piper)

-ves
here have to agree with:
pasted from other thread [quote="pip14"]Just back, had a great day, Leinster fans were all really friendly...can't believe how bad Hump, Best and especially Darcy were..
quote]
line out did not function at all, just a complete lottery which at this level is not good enough, its so fundamental to creating scoring oportunities you can not afford it to be working at 50%
Darcy was just an error machine! key moments he made the wrong decisions or passed forward or knocked on (which have to say he has been doing since Northampton).
Hump wasn't at his best - where was the kicking from hand to keep us in the right parts of the park (as he did last week against the Dragons) instead down the middle to Nacewa.
Related to above, trying to play too much rugby in our 22.
Cave missing in action
SimonD not the same man of last season - constantly in 2 minds going forward and head up/reserved in the defense (being kind).
Agree with earlier - where was the maul?