Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Right!!

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Mac
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Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Right!!

Post by Mac »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/f ... 26044.html

Without a doubt there are two sides to this coin but I really hope that UR are in for the long
haul and that the bigger picture isn't overlooked. There is the usual (me thinks) anti U.R. bias
in certain elements of the press and in this article (again), but it would be wrong to ignore what
is being said at the same time. We do have a great crop of promising younger players coming
through and have good set-up with the Academy etc etc. These players will undoubtedly benefit
enormously from training and playing alongside the NIQ players as well as our own home grown
internationals. It will give them a great insight as to how to do things both on and off the pitch
as well as greatly speed up this process. What these youngsters can learn from having the likes
of RP, JM & JA around is immeasurable. Plus the mix is needed also as I for one prefer to walk
out of Ravers on a high as opposed to how my heart has been feeling the last month or so. BUT..
...... to find this balance where Jackson, Spence, Gilroy, Gaston, Annett and the Acedemy lads
are not overlooked in the long term. NO TAN HERE! :red:

STILL.......don't like this article and the smell of grapes! :puker:
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Yoda
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by Yoda »

what a crock

for one, ST won't be denying Luke Marshall any game time as he has a broken face!

Ulster have done nothing different to the other provinces and as Mac points out the NIQ play a valuable role in developing the young uns

Players don't simply develop by getting game time - particularly if they get hammered week in week out - experience is also required in a squad and thats what the NIQs bring

Usual rubbish from the Indo
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Gael
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by Gael »

Load of crap. Most of the points he makes about players being denied game time are incorrect or vastly warped with the intention of having a pop at someone because he has nothing better to talk about.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by Big-al »

How can a full back be holding back centres and wingers?

How one earth could Wannenburg/Diack be holding back Faloon. They have never played in the 7 jersey for Ulster.We've no real scrumhalfs comiong through (although Porter aint a bad prospect), our young full backs are far too raw. We've feck all backrowers as well. Ulster are hardly signing Ma'a Nonu or Sivivatu and holding back the likes of Spence, Marshall or Gilroy.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by mikerob »

I couldn't see a byline on the article - anyone know who wrote it?

It's an opinion piece... if a paper just had articles that everyone agreed with then there wouldn't be anything worth reading. There is nothing wrong with stirring up a bit of debate.

On one comment:
Home-grown players will always have greater commitment than drive-by mercenaries looking to feather their nests, and carry the added benefit of aiding the national cause.
A sweeping generalisation... you could equally say that a foreign professional knows that the world doesn't owe him a living unlike the local "big fish in a small pond" enjoying all the lifestyle benefits of being a pro sports person in NI.

A better question may be to ask why Ulster's production line of young talent doesn't appear to have been as effective as Munster's or Leinster's. I've been hearing the "talented youngsters" line for years now and precious few have come through to international level. I don't know if that means they were overhyped to start with or if there is something wrong with the Ulster set-up that means we aren't getting the best out of people.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by HwoodMike2umate »

i like the line ... "when we were still using punts to buy our first mobile phone" to illustrate Terblanches age.
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mikerob
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by mikerob »

HwoodMike2umate wrote:i like the line ... "when we were still using punts to buy our first mobile phone" to illustrate Terblanches age.
Yeah... a scarily long time ago. I can remember the game the article referred to... Terblanche scored 4 tries against Ireland and his opposite wing was Dennis Hickie who got huge flak for his abject defence. It put Hickie's career back years. Donal Lenihan reputedly said that Hickie wouldn't get selected for any team he was ever involved with and surprise, surprise, Hickie wasn't picked for the 2001 Lions.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by BaggyTrousers »

Dumb article, I see the hand of Bills at work. Have issued a stinging rebuke to the unnamed author -fear ye not.

Edit: Which in their infinite stupidity the rag has failed to publish despite it containing nothing more than claifications and a challenge to confront the lack of facts.

Cowardly twats
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Last edited by BaggyTrousers on Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by rumncoke »

Its an old song with a revised tempo

But it sort of misses the point if Ulster had the necessary talent at hand it would be used it .The Academy has some promising players but they are at this immature backs and forwards in order to progress and develop they need time and they need to be surrounded by good players who can advise and coach them.

Backs learn little watching the forwards scrap to win ball and even less if they are mauled ever time they get the ball.

The other omitted fact is that before Ulster sign these the imports a strong case must be submitted to the IRFU for approval
the decision is not done independently .
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by thewaterboy »

This article is complete rubbish. All 4 provinces play by the same rules and have the same number of foreigners. Why pick out Ulster? Because a non-irish qualified full back replaces another non-irish qualified fullback who is injured? Joke :duh:

5 Non-Irish Qualified: Afoa, Muller, Wannenburg, Pienaar, Daniellie
1 Project Player: Payne

5 Non-Irish Qualified: Du Preez, Botha, Mafi, Howlett, Chambers
1 Project Player: Borlase

5 Non-Irish Qualified: Berquist, Auva’a, Sykes, Nacewa, Van Der Merwe
1 Project Player: Strauss

6 Non-Irish Qualified: Ah You, Ofisa, Vinakolo, Fa’afili, Naoupu, Reynecke
1 Project Player: Nikora
:red: SUFTUM :red:
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by ColinM »

Dunno why we bother annoying ourselves. They've only stopped short of saying Court is holding back Paddy as Court was wearing green in the last month which is about the limit of the writers memory. If we'd have won the last few games, we

a) might not have signed ST
b) would be getting praise for playing the young talent and allowing it to blossom.

As it is, I cant think that any of our buyins are holding back talent that is ready. Faloon is the only one being held back, in my eyes but there's more to it than meets the eye we have to suspect... Diack on the bench in preference, when theres two other no8's on the pitch...
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Re: Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance

Post by OneMore »

Red Hand Hero wrote:...It's disappointing that Ireland's most promising (only?) option at 7 is 5th choice at his province because his coach cannot/will not see the benefits of playing a proper 7.
You may be right here, but even if someone did see the benefits of a natural 7 it is conceivable that they have concluded that Willie Faloon hasc not been good enough over the last season and a bit. I'd love him to be Ritchie McCaw as much as the next man, but far too often there has been more significant ball retrieval by the Event Sec'ers on the Terrace.

That sounds harsh. And it's an exaggeration, but let's not pretend Willie Faloon is what's been missing for us over the last few weeks.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by Neil F »

I hate to seem like I'm playing devil's advocate here but there are some subtle difference between Ulster and Munster and Leinster. Munster specifically, actually; Elsom was probably the difference between Leinster winning and not winning their first Heineken Cup. Leinster and Munster were already good sides before the guys they've signed came in. Ulster were seriously struggling before the arrival of Muller, Pienaar and Wannenberg. Leinster and Munster have complemented their already talented squads with a few choice additions in positions of weakness. Ulster have looked to foreigners to almost completely reverse our fortunes.

That, of course, doesn't appear to be the point of the article in question but it is a pertinent point. Ulster haven't improved the squad with a few choice foreigners, they have built a squad around these foreigners. The same doesn't hold for Leinster and Munster. I think Ulster need to be very careful to ensure that the next generation of leader is produced in the province, not brought in from elsewhere.

Never written 'foreigners' so many times in one post. Almost feel like a xenophobe :puker:
Red Hand Hero wrote:It's disappointing that Ireland's most promising (only?) option at 7 is 5th choice at his province because his coach cannot/will not see the benefits of playing a proper 7.
RHH; I was pretty much with you up until this point but this loses me a little bit. You're not the only person on this forum with this view, so I apologise for singling your post out to make this point, of course!

It might not be a popular thing to say on this forum but I think Faloon is the most singularly overrated player by Ulster fans. He is very effective in short bursts but he is not an 80 minute player and has been marginalised because he disappears out of games too often. Compare the impact Faloon has had compared to Pollock or McMillan when they first burst onto the scene, for example. He's a fair bit behind those two. Faloon has a lot to prove before he should be the automatic choice people here have him. I don't think it's that McLaughlin cannot see the benefits of playing a 'proper' 7; it's that Faloon isn't consistently good enough to make more of an impact on a game than Henry in the 7 shirt.

For the record, I like a good 'traditional' openside, by the way and I'm glad to see the emergence of some seriously good competitors (Pocock, Warburton) in this role in recent seasons. For a while, it almost seemed like it was dying out but these guys have really shown the value of the mould. I want Faloon in the team but he isn't good enough to be an automatic selection for Ulster at the moment. He has the chance because he has the mental know-how and the physical attributes but for some reason, he just doesn't do the damage consistently enough. On that basis, I'd rather see a workhorse like Henry on the park. Over 80 minutes, Henry will be more effective.

My argument would be that on recent form, Henry should be in the 8 shirt, which would allow Faloon a shot at 7. Wannenberg isn't in good form but on his day, he is a very effective player and we can hope he recovers some of what he showed last year. If all were on form, Ferris, Henry and Wannenberg would be Ulster's strongest back row, if you ask me.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by againstthehead »

Good post Neil.

Guys like Pienaar and Afoa I have no issue with but some of the overseas guys arn't much better than the local talent. Danielli has been living on past glories for over a year now - although he does have the very occasional super game - eg northampton away last year. Muller is a leader but I wouldn't say he's an outstanding player per se. However, as a leader we can do with him. Wannenberg is over-rated and I've never been convinced by him. He offers a bit of depth to the backrow but I'd have Diack and Faloon ahead of him. Payne looked a good signing at 15 and I can see why we've tried to bring in another bit of class at 15, However, it does mean that a local guy (or D'arcy....) misses out on game time.

When you add in the the irish-qualified/project players: d'arcy, court, tuohy and diack you have to wonder why we don't have more home grown talent to call on.

One other point - the likes of Munster and Leinster benefit from the best connacht lads jumping ship. What's the point of cronin and carr going to leinster to sit on the bench? No wonder we have to go overseas if we can't get these types of players up to Ulster.
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Re: Two Sides to this Argument - But to get the Balance Righ

Post by BaggyTrousers »

againstthehead wrote:One other point - the likes of Munster and Leinster benefit from the best connacht lads jumping ship. What's the point of cronin and carr going to leinster to sit on the bench? No wonder we have to go overseas if we can't get these types of players up to Ulster.
No interest in debating your opinions on players, much as I find more than one bizarre, however you should be made aware that most of what you describe as "the best Connacht lads" are not Connacht lads at all but guys who have gone there as young players to get games & experience. They will always go back to either Munster or Leinster with potentially now Ulster as well when the bigger & usually their home province comes calling.
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