mikerob wrote:Personally I think it is a stretch to say that teams winning 0/22 domestic games (Zebre) should have guaranteed qualification to a premier competition.
I think this is my point. Zebre don't compete domestically. If Zebre took part in the Italian league, I'm pretty confident they'd do alright. There's an in-built assumption here that the Pro12 is just like the AP or T14 - it's not. It's the basis of a European Superleague. It's the best teams from a number of countries. The fact that the Irish, Welsh, Scots and Italians have got together and organised a pretty high quality league (considering our individual alternative options) is now being used as a stick to beat us with.
The fact that we don't have relegation or nationality-independent HEC qualification based purely on league position should be a bad thing. There's nothing stopping the English or French doing the same. In fact if the English/French got together and made a league would they, similarly, expect then HEC qualification from the new anglo-french league to be cut to 6 teams, regardless of where the teams are from?
We shouldn't be apologising for the fact the Celtalians have got ourselves organised.
MR I know my response is a departure from the main thrust of your argument about weaker-country participation versus high quality competition. Apologies - just the bloody English annoy me at times.
Even if the Italians didn't compete in the Pro12 and were in their own domestic competition, the same argument would apply - how many Italian teams should have automatic qualification to the premier competition?
Clearly in European football, no such right applies and teams from weaker leagues need to go through qualification. I don't think that should be the case with rugby, but equally, should there be no quality control? So it doesn't matter how crap the 2nd Italian team is, they will always get into the HEC?
Who should not be there?
Mike Robs argument is that it should be for the best teams only but that was the way of the football champions league where the big countries and teams create an elitist panel amongst themselves which no one else benefits from.
The smaller countries such as ourselves are crushed domestically as we will never get a big competitive match against any of the best sides in Europe as we used to.
I remember Glentoran as our champions running the great Liverpool team close in the European cup over 2 legs in the early 80s.
Because we have been cast adrift that could never happen now as the difference in standard is now chasmic.
Still there will always be easier groups in qualification and harder ones regardless of the format.
One mores point that Zebre are in the top 2 Italian sides is where they should be judged and not on the basis of a European mini league standings is another valid argument.
If inital failure was an option surely the Italians should have been kicked out of the 6 nations years ago but people understood the bigger picture and the long term benefit of having them in the tournament.
That thinking has paid dividends as their recent 6 nations performances proved.
Mike Robs argument has definate logic but lacks any sort of empathy for the game.
Last edited by bazzaj on Fri May 17, 2013 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is a view that the premier competition should mean the best, whatever country they come from, and that will mean a format more like European football
Or, there is a view that countries should have a certain number of teams, but the issue then becomes the level of "quality control" for what is meant to be a premier competition.
bazzaj wrote:
Mike Robs argument has definate logic but lacks any sort of empathy for the game.
I think your lack of empathy comment is wrong. How does it benefit Zebre to be pumped in the HEC when they would be competitive in the Amlin?
I'm sure Mike is as keen as I am to see rugby broaden and develop in Italy but can you say Zebre/Aironi or whoever have been the second Italian team have actually developed as opposed to failing, going bust, rebranding and walking back into the HEC?
We have strong arguments against the PRL position but that isn't one of them.
Exactly. There are two aspects - one is money, and if the Italians end up getting less money then that would affect their development. IMO there is a responsibility on the league to develop weaker teams rather than pure "winner takes all".
An extreme example is US pro sports, despite being in the most capitalistic society in the world, have basically a socialist view when it comes to distributing money and the draft pick.
The second aspect is the playing side, and as LKOTP says, would it really hurt Zebre to compete in the ACC until they have shown they are able to compete at a higher level?
Last edited by mikerob on Fri May 17, 2013 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Its a fair point and I get what you are saying but the Amlin and the HEC are poles apart in terms of competitiveness.
All I would say is look at the improvement of a side like Connacht over the last couple of season in terms of being a part of the HEC.
As well as revenue they have attracted bigger name players and probably kept a few I dare say who all want to play in Europes elite competition.
They have ruffled a few feathers as well by beating both Quins and Biarritz in the process.
They are not realistically ever going to win the HEC and have done well in the Amlin before but just go and ask any member of their club which competition they would rather be in.
Of course you dont think so but there is a bigger picture involved.
I dont see how excluding those sides can be seen as in any way beneficial to those clubs.
Connacht were in the ACC for 12 years before they were in the HEC.
Should Zebre not have to do some sort of apprenticeship as well?
Also, Connacht qualified on the back of Leinster's efforts, not their own, and this was only because HEC qualification rules changed.
Under the previous system, Connacht could have qualified if they had finished ahead of the Dragons and beaten the third ranked Italian team, but they never managed to do this.
In general, I would rather see HEC places based upon a team achieving something themselves rather than be handed out as a freeby.
But again this just isnt about Zebre, this is about 4 other teams as well who have all served apprenticeships being excluded in the new proposal.
I just believe that a HEC should be as all encompassing as possible.
If its about the best teams achieving something then have the Italian sides playing off against one another if it matters that much.
As far as I am concerned they should be given 2 allocated teams and it is completely up to their rugby union as to which sides should represent them.
The broader the competition the better as far as I am concerned.
Make the competition broader and all encompassing - fine - but the more you do that, the less claim the HEC has to be a truly premier competition and the less justification there is for the massive difference in rewards between the HEC and ACC.
The HEC is the premier club rugby Competition.
This is about money and the rich English clubs attempt to seduce the Celtic teams into some sort of cartel.
I hope they're told to gaft.
mikerob wrote:Make the competition broader and all encompassing - fine - but the more you do that, the less claim the HEC has to be a truly premier competition and the less justification there is for the massive difference in rewards between the HEC and ACC.
The best teams are in it and win it.
The QFs are the 8 best teams in Europe and this year was so competitive it did not include Leinster in their ranks which still makes it the best.
I remember not so long ago when we hardly won a game in the HEC that some English clubs were calling on our exclusion as all we had to do was beat Connacht to qualify.
Its easy to talk big when the shoe is on the other foot.
Completely out of context.
I will reitorate keep it as it is.
There is just as much of an need for two Italian teams than 7 English.
It is a European competition.
Again we have been lamentable in this competition so now we arent in that position suddenly you want to exclude teams as they are not as good as others.
I have argued this to death now and I am starting to repeat myself as you havent read my previous posts properly.
If you want to go over things again refer to my previous posts.
Zebre's predecessors served their time in the ACC.
Like the Scottish outfits, the Italians' business model is built on HEC competition. Stick them in the Amlin and watch them fail again. Then if we're lucky we'll get another Italian franchise to replace them and start the long road to competitiveness. Meanwhile Bennetton have managed some stability and are in the heady heights of mid-table P12.
