Any word on the Academy?

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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kingofthehill
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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ljsulster wrote:KOTH, after watching the last 5 games has your opinion changed on any of the Ulster lads? I still think Crothers could have a good career and James McCormick will leapfrog John Andrew in the next year. I agree on postlethwaite, he will play for Ireland some day. Unfortunately, Ben Carson is just a big lump who doesn’t offer anything, he won’t make it. Wilson and Mcnabney are exciting and still have another year at this level. Mcloughlin is someone I would like to see more of, very powerful with good footwork and athleticism
I generally think the standard from the others teams has been really really poor which I didn’t anticipate. When they beat France the Grand Slam was secured.

Crothers will play for ulster but will get no more than 3 caps and end up at Jersey or Ealing.
Would of liked to see more of Wilson as I think he will come through.
I like the look of McLoughlin.
Carson will be a good AIL player.
Postlewaite to overtake Mccloskey at the end of next season.


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kingofthehill
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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StandUp wrote:
kingofthehill wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:51 pm
StandUp wrote:Postlethwaite is one of those rare players who looks like he has plenty of time on the ball.
Mark my words-Ulsters first string centre partnership will be Hume and Postlewaite in a years time.


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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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colind wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:59 pm Did I hear correctly during the commentary that, going into todays match, Crothers tournament stats were 55 tackles and none missed?

That is some going over four matches.
He’s a classy player, not a powerhouse, but an all action flanker like Van der flier.

Unlike KOTH, I think he’ll be a seasoned pro at ulster. There is a gap in the squad for an old school flanker.
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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Big-al wrote:
colind wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:59 pm Did I hear correctly during the commentary that, going into todays match, Crothers tournament stats were 55 tackles and none missed?

That is some going over four matches.
He’s a classy player, not a powerhouse, but an action flanker like Van der flier.
Jeepers thats a comparison and a halfImageImage.


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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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U20s 6 nations final table - apologies for the formatting, don't know how to get it right.

1 IRELAND 5 5 0 0 27
2 FRANCE 5 4 0 1 20
3 ENGLAND 5 2 0 3 13
4 ITALY 5 3 0 2 13
5 WALES 5 1 0 4 6
6 SCOTLND 5 0 0 5 1

Makes ugly reading for the Welsh and Scots. Italy delivered more wins than England who got to 13 by taking a bonus point in all of their matches.
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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kingofthehill wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 10:52 pm
Big-al wrote:
colind wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:59 pm Did I hear correctly during the commentary that, going into todays match, Crothers tournament stats were 55 tackles and none missed?

That is some going over four matches.
He’s a classy player, not a powerhouse, but an action flanker like Van der flier.
Jeepers thats a comparison and a halfImageImage.


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In playing style.

If crothers was from Leinster I’d be very confident of him having a successful pro career, certainly at provincial level.

He was the heartbeat of that u20 team, huge work rate and when they needed someone to make a lung busting carry or momentum stopping tackle, he was often the guy to do it.

England, Scotland and certainly wales were very poor by their standards I think.
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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I'm not to sure of my facts here

But the one thing Irish rugby has is a competitive edge at school level with each province having a Schools Cup competition this has lead in some schools a virtual professional approach to rugby at an early stage .

It is rumoured that at least one school in Ulster pays its rugby coach nearly £ 80k a year and it has been the case that in some schools 1st XV players are in the gym for 7 30 in the morning and a similar approach maybe more wide spread in Leinster .

It can be a two edged sword in that the demands being on players at school are to great and put them off the game when they leave school because it lacks enjoyment .
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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How many of this squad will become provincial players is hard to answer because what the U20 side actually confirmed is that Rugby is a team sport play as a team you win play as gifted individuals and you lose thus the question is to become a professional after the U20 six nations to what extent must you be a gifted individual and to what extent did the success reply on team play and coaching .

There are some will make it because the opening for them may exist others may not because the opening for them in the provincial squad does not exist or they decide to pursue a different career path

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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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rumncoke wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:43 am I'm not to sure of my facts here

But the one thing Irish rugby has is a competitive edge at school level with each province having a Schools Cup competition this has lead in some schools a virtual professional approach to rugby at an early stage .

It is rumoured that at least one school in Ulster pays its rugby coach nearly £ 80k a year and it has been the case that in some schools 1st XV players are in the gym for 7 30 in the morning and a similar approach maybe more wide spread in Leinster .

It can be a two edged sword in that the demands being on players at school are to great and put them off the game when they leave school because it lacks enjoyment .
This is true. Given the level of conditioning compared with my day, I was a bit surprised at the number of boys suffering from cramp after 60 mins rugby in the Schools Cup Final.
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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big mervyn wrote:
rumncoke wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:43 am I'm not to sure of my facts here

But the one thing Irish rugby has is a competitive edge at school level with each province having a Schools Cup competition this has lead in some schools a virtual professional approach to rugby at an early stage .

It is rumoured that at least one school in Ulster pays its rugby coach nearly £ 80k a year and it has been the case that in some schools 1st XV players are in the gym for 7 30 in the morning and a similar approach maybe more wide spread in Leinster .

It can be a two edged sword in that the demands being on players at school are to great and put them off the game when they leave school because it lacks enjoyment .
This is true. Given the level of conditioning compared with my day, I was a bit surprised at the number of boys suffering from cramp after 60 mins rugby in the Schools Cup Final.
Always the way regarding schools cup final.

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kingofthehill
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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rumncoke wrote:I'm not to sure of my facts here

But the one thing Irish rugby has is a competitive edge at school level with each province having a Schools Cup competition this has lead in some schools a virtual professional approach to rugby at an early stage .

It is rumoured that at least one school in Ulster pays its rugby coach nearly £ 80k a year and it has been the case that in some schools 1st XV players are in the gym for 7 30 in the morning and a similar approach maybe more wide spread in Leinster .

It can be a two edged sword in that the demands being on players at school are to great and put them off the game when they leave school because it lacks enjoyment .
80k a year…….If you are referring to Mcglock at BRA I would say you’re a mile off.

Apparently highest paid DOR is in Castleknock College . Southern schools pump way more money into their rugby programmes. I reckon you are talking at least 3-4 times of what anyone up North would be spending.


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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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My son plays at one of the said big rugby schools, and as they move up through school the more semi pro it becomes, from Meds onwards in particular. While he is loving rugby at school, he also lives in fear of losing his place (something expressed by quite a few parents), which makes me exceptionally annoyed as these are kids who should be enjoying playing sport with their mates... He also trains and plays occasionally for his club, with a lot of the same boys, and the difference in their happiness and fun while playing is palpable.

theres definitely too much pressure at school level in certain quarters and when a DoR is paid 70k+ and has no teaching responsibilities this is multiplied.
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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nonplussed wrote:My son plays at one of the said big rugby schools, and as they move up through school the more semi pro it becomes, from Meds onwards in particular. While he is loving rugby at school, he also lives in fear of losing his place (something expressed by quite a few parents), which makes me exceptionally annoyed as these are kids who should be enjoying playing sport with their mates... He also trains and plays occasionally for his club, with a lot of the same boys, and the difference in their happiness and fun while playing is palpable.

theres definitely too much pressure at school level in certain quarters and when a DoR is paid 70k+ and has no teaching responsibilities this is multiplied.
If the coach isn’t driving fun and inclusivity then it’s wrong. At same time it’s not the coaches fault if he is in fear of losing his place. I would love to know the school your son goes to.


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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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Agreed that its not the coach's fault he lives in fear of his place, however it is reflective of a culture of success only not participation which is wrong. As a parent, its my job to show him that sport of whatever flavour is much more than playing in the top team, and winning every match. He's a very decent player, and more than holds his own, yet given the mindset of the 1sts/As is the be all and anything else is failure is simply wrong
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Re: Any word on the Academy?

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nonplussed wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:04 am My son plays at one of the said big rugby schools, and as they move up through school the more semi pro it becomes, from Meds onwards in particular. While he is loving rugby at school, he also lives in fear of losing his place (something expressed by quite a few parents), which makes me exceptionally annoyed as these are kids who should be enjoying playing sport with their mates... He also trains and plays occasionally for his club, with a lot of the same boys, and the difference in their happiness and fun while playing is palpable.

theres definitely too much pressure at school level in certain quarters and when a DoR is paid 70k+ and has no teaching responsibilities this is multiplied.
The same could be said of some of the English schools. The only difference is that in NI the 'rugby schools' (bar Campbell) are not fee-paying, whereas a lot of the RoI ones (Clongowes, Blackrock, Belvedere etc) and nearly all of the English ones are. That's a feature of the entry selection criteria in NI (another subject entirely and not one for this thread). State schools in England, unless they are 'old' grammar schools (e.g. Colchester Royal Grammar School) rarely play much sport at all, and would be rather unlikely to see a specialist single sports coach as a worth-while spend.

A friend's 14 year old son is at Warwick School (middle of the road independent school in the English midlands with day fees of around £15k, nowhere near as high profile as the Etons, Harrow's Winchesters - more aligned with the Sedbergh's, Ampleforth's, Gresham's, Repton's, etc) and they have 3 teams in each year group from 12, selected by rugby ability all the way to the 1st XV, which largely comprises 17-18 year olds. His son is in B1 (the one below A) and is doing S&C at 7.15am twice a week. The school has a full-time rugby coach.

He still enjoys it, mainly I think because he's still ok, can see a way into the higher team with hard work, and his mates play too - but you can see how when it gets to 17/18 and you've not made it but can still go to Uni why you just give up playing - it's a blessed relief. The worst part for the game itself though is that the school demands priority over any club rugby on a Saturday. So there is little understanding of the concept of 'playing for fun' and, more importantly, being a long term part of a club (beyond Sunday morning mini-rugby which seems effectively for many parent to be cheap child-care).

It boils my blood to read journalists going on about the 'lack of school sport' etc etc, whether rugby, cricket, hockey, athletics or even rowing. The sad fact is that modern professional sport demands (a) talent, (b) hard work, (c) intensive coaching input, (d) facilities (now even more off the pitch too), for a number of sports (e) expensive personal equipment [balls, sticks, pads, boats etc], and (f) at the lower levels, a lot of time and money input from parents in running kids to coaching events/matches - for which you generally need a car. And now that's to even get into the sub-academy at 18. The only organisations who can afford to consistently provide that for 11-18 year olds in all sports (except English football) are schools who recover these costs from all their customers (i.e. fee-paying ones). They also have the advantage of (a) a longer school day so can fit in sport nearly every day and (b) a pool of funds to provide scholarships (and often this includes boarding). They generally also have the funding to be reasonably academically successful, so even if you don't succeed in sport, you can still get into college somewhere. You want sporting excellence coming from state schools - it'll cost a lot of (tax-payers) money. Even the National Lottery won't run to that much.

So when, as another friend who was county-level at u-16 level is approached by a private school (in this case Worksop College) offering a full sport scholarship for 16-18 then which parent is going to turn it down ? Joe Root's parents did the same - he was playing cricket for his local Sheffield club from 7 to 16, and both him and his parents knew that to bridge the gap to 18 & the County Academies he had to have the specialist coaching and time that only a private school (which was Worksop College too) could provide. The same thing also happened for one of my sister's daughters (hockey this time) at a different private school. They, with much concern, took the offer.

Or to look at it another way, my partner's niece is doing 4 A-levels at Aquinas on the Ravenhill (3 in STEM). Did 11 GCSEs. With a school day that lasts from 8.45 to 3.30, is it a surprise that there's no little or no sport in the school beyond official PE and what an enthusiastic teacher or two does after school ?

The only exceptions to this seem to be (a) GAA in Ireland, where it's the clubs who really seem to have the upper hand all through teenage years (please correct me if I'm wrong here) and (b) football (in England). In the latter this is because the schools either don't do it (e.g. the private ones) or gave up a long time back (in the 1970's) when the clubs realised they had to expand their youth systems to fill that gap in both talent sourcing and training, and academies down below 18 etc came along. In both systems the cost of improvement is taken out by either central support for many of the local input costs (GAA) or direct control of the process (soccer academies). No school can compete with the money that any Premier League or Championship club can throw at this issue. So why try ?

Not sure which is better - what I can say is that I'll bet that a goodly proportion of the £17m or so that Methody was left a year or so ago will end up spent at Pirrie Park and the rowing club at Stranmillis and, perhaps, hockey ? That's how Methody will stay competitive with the Campbell's.

Finally, Millfield School in Somerset (well known in English sporting circles) seems, as a fee-paying school, to have specialised in (a) sport and (b) disabled pupils (it's apparently an outstanding school in that area). I'm reasonably confident that the two work well together, with parents who can afford it more than happy with how it works.
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