calling all religious fanatics

[BaggyTrousers]

I was astonished yesterday when Mrs Trousers told me that a child told her, she wasn't allowed to make a wish. It is apparently forbidden in her house and yet I have met both parents and neither have two heads.

Somewhat puzzled and wondering what sort of asshole would deprive a child of its childhood, usually filled with fantasy of one sort of another as they develop their imagination.

Now as you mentalists know, whilst I find your beliefs bizarre, I absolutely acknowledge you right to have your hopes and fantasies, what branch of mentalism denies a child the frivolous wishes it may flirt with, either briefly or more frequently?

Surely this is some cult of cranks and not a mainstream view? Advice please.

[big mervyn]

I used to work with a guy whobdidn't celebrate Xmas (and a few more who wouldn't spend it). He was a Christian who thought it was pagan, which of course it is, but it meant his childer were denied the magic, the decorations the presents and, no doubt, were made to feel a bit out of it amongst their pals because of his somewhat extreme views.

I also know some people of no faith who told tgeir weans from the start that there was no Santa. Also bang out of order in my book.

[Rooster]

I used to work with a guy whobdidn't celebrate Xmas (and a few more who wouldn't spend it). He was a Christian who thought it was pagan, which of course it is, but it meant his childer were denied the magic, the decorations the presents and, no doubt, were made to feel a bit out of it amongst their pals because of his somewhat extreme views.

I also know some people of no faith who told tgeir weans from the start that there was no Santa. Also bang out of order in my book.

I know a family like that as well so there are at least 2of them

[Dave]

I was brought up by very loving yet very devout evangelical christian parents. They had some quite obscure things that I wasn't allowed to do. Possibly the most bizarre was when they took away my Bon Jovi 'Keep the Faith' CD. They believed that any rock music was 'of the devil', despite the Christian undertones of the content. I can think of others reasons why they might they should have taken the CD away, perhaps they were being kind and didn't want to insult my taste in music, at the time. Basically my childhood consisted of trying to decipher what was from the Devil and what was legit. In evangelical Christianity there is a free for all when it comes to theology and there is a great emphasis on a supernatural struggle between good and evil. Many things are blacklisted through suspicious and paranoid interpretation, so I wouldn't be surprised if making a wish was blacklisted and labelled as a form of demonic prayer.

As a child I found the idea that there might be actual demons trying to threaten my existence, far more frightening than anything I was banned from, such as Halloween etc. It was tantamount to emotional abuse but then so to is the very concept of Christianity, which is that you are born inadequate and need the redemption of an invisible and non-intervening supernatural being. I'm sure many in fundamentalist Northern Ireland will disagree but passing on a belief system as if it was knowledge to children, who believe will believe to be knowledge in the absence of evidence is ethically questionable. I think it is better to make these choices as an adult. I know my parents would say that they didn't want me to burn for eternity for my unbelief.

Being punished for eternity by a benevolent supernatural god for unbelief is a concept that is frankly bizarre and easily incongruent. I'm not trying to undermine anyone's belief system, I'm just highlighting my own views on the particular brand of Christianity that I was immersed in as a child.

[solidarity]

Hi folks, I've been teaching Christian stuff for thirty years and following this forum with great enjoyment, and no little profit for a few months. I think Dave is on the right track about the wish thing. The parents are either saying that the child is treating prayer flippantly, even blasphemously or (more likely) they believe that she is going in entirely the opposite direction and getting involved with something to do with paganism by calling on 'the spirit world' to grant her wish. Poor kid. In either case it comes from pretty far along the fundamentalist spectrum and would be far from typical of Christians in general.

On your more general point, Dave, we do have a much larger fundamentalist wing in NI than in most other places but it is still pretty small and, while the Protestant churches in the province have become more conservative (or Evangelical, if you prefer) in recent years, fundamentalism has shrunk considerably. Yet, they do make virtually all of the headlines and do cause most of the harm. The combination of Fundamentalism, Ulster Scots paranoia and a few other things has been particularly toxic.

On your even more general point, surely it is impossible to raise children without communicating your own belief system, whatever that is. If you don't believe your worldview (Christianity, Humanism, Islam, Marxism or whatever) is worth passing on to your children, what's it worth? Nothing. It is a myth that we can allow children to grow to adulthood in pure innocence then make up their own minds. If we don't influence our children's thinking, there are plenty of wierdos (not least in the entertainment media and politics) out there who are only too willing to do so. But I feel a soft-socialist, anti-capitalist rant coming on so I'll stop.

[Snipe Watson]

Hi folks, I've been teaching Christian stuff for thirty years and following this forum with great enjoyment, and no little profit for a few months. I think Dave is on the right track about the wish thing. The parents are either saying that the child is treating prayer flippantly, even blasphemously or (more likely) they believe that she is going in entirely the opposite direction and getting involved with something to do with paganism by calling on 'the spirit world' to grant her wish. Poor kid. In either case it comes from pretty far along the fundamentalist spectrum and would be far from typical of Christians in general.

On your more general point, Dave, we do have a much larger fundamentalist wing in NI than in most other places but it is still pretty small and, while the Protestant churches in the province have become more conservative (or Evangelical, if you prefer) in recent years, fundamentalism has shrunk considerably. Yet, they do make virtually all of the headlines and do cause most of the harm. The combination of Fundamentalism, Ulster Scots paranoia and a few other things has been particularly toxic.

On your even more general point, surely it is impossible to raise children without communicating your own belief system, whatever that is. If you don't believe your worldview (Christianity, Humanism, Islam, Marxism or whatever) is worth passing on to your children, what's it worth? Nothing. It is a myth that we can allow children to grow to adulthood in pure innocence then make up their own minds. If we don't influence our children's thinking, there are plenty of wierdos (not least in the entertainment media and politics) out there who are only too willing to do so. But I feel a soft-socialist, anti-capitalist rant coming on so I'll stop.

Good first post. For me Christianity is and should be soft socialist and socially liberal. I think the reason for the shift to the right is that Unionism is generally a right wing policy and we have a rather potent mix of religion and politics in NI dragging the whole thing further to the right.
On the Santa question, I know some parents who believe that it wrong to lie to their kids in any circumstances and telling kids that there is a Santa is lying. I don't agree, but I don't fault the principle.

[Dave]

Hi folks, I've been teaching Christian stuff for thirty years and following this forum with great enjoyment, and no little profit for a few months. I think Dave is on the right track about the wish thing. The parents are either saying that the child is treating prayer flippantly, even blasphemously or (more likely) they believe that she is going in entirely the opposite direction and getting involved with something to do with paganism by calling on 'the spirit world' to grant her wish. Poor kid. In either case it comes from pretty far along the fundamentalist spectrum and would be far from typical of Christians in general.

On your more general point, Dave, we do have a much larger fundamentalist wing in NI than in most other places but it is still pretty small and, while the Protestant churches in the province have become more conservative (or Evangelical, if you prefer) in recent years, fundamentalism has shrunk considerably. Yet, they do make virtually all of the headlines and do cause most of the harm. The combination of Fundamentalism, Ulster Scots paranoia and a few other things has been particularly toxic.

On your even more general point, surely it is impossible to raise children without communicating your own belief system, whatever that is. If you don't believe your worldview (Christianity, Humanism, Islam, Marxism or whatever) is worth passing on to your children, what's it worth? Nothing. It is a myth that we can allow children to grow to adulthood in pure innocence then make up their own minds. If we don't influence our children's thinking, there are plenty of wierdos (not least in the entertainment media and politics) out there who are only too willing to do so. But I feel a soft-socialist, anti-capitalist rant coming on so I'll stop.

I called it fundamentalist Northern Ireland, due to the fact that the largest political party and thus a significant part of our assembly leadership is made up from individuals who are fundamentalist christians. You are correct they are a minority view but since they are democratically elected, that is a wholesale endorsement of their religious viewpoint as it is clearly influencing policy. Edwin Poots, being a prime example, the 'gay blood' issue and the disgraceful stalling of the new, and badly needed, adoption legislation.

I think you may have also overlooked what I actually saying as well. I didn't say that I would be bringing my children up without passing on the idea of a belief system, or without any ethical or moral input from me, leaving them to their own devices. What I said was that I wouldn't be passing on a belief system as knowledge. You can say you believe in God, but it is something different to say to a child that you know there is a God. Children will believe it to be true. I would find it incongruent of me to encourage my children to think critically and look for evidence, yet on the other hand accept a set of beliefs as truth in the absence of tangible evidence. I am aware that this may not be your experience, but it was mine growing up.

I was taught to 'know' God and not to question his existence. This wasn't faith or belief in my view but a kind of pseudo-knowledge I was emotionally manipulated into accepting. Threatened with an eternity in hell will get most children into accepting the 'gospel'. I have no issue with parents offering Christianity as an option, saying something like "here is something that some people believe in, it may or not be true but would you like to explore it". Telling children they must accept or they will go to hell is, in my experience, emotional abuse.

[Snipe Watson]

Dave, I take it that you believe racism to be wrong and would lovingly explain to your children why it is wrong?
I believe Christianity to be correct and in the very same manner I have taught my children about what I believe to be correct. I have also taught them to not be homophobic, to be honest, to be respectful of others, etc.
If I believe something to be right, I teach it to my children as being correct. If I think something is one of a number of plausible options I will explain it that way.

[Dave]

I take it that you believe racism to be wrong and would lovingly explain to your children why it is wrong?
I believe Christianity to be correct and in the very same manner I have taught my children about what I believe to be correct. I have also taught them to not be homophobic, to be honest, to be respectful of others, etc.
If I believe something to be right, I teach it to my children as being correct. If I think something is one of a number of plausible options I will explain it that way.

I agree with that Snipe, it is better to explain to children why racism is wrong than simply to tell them it is wrong. I do talk about the teachings of Christ to my children because he was correct on so many things like non judging etc. I don't lead to them to accepting the knowledge that Christianity, with the view of a supernatural God, is true. They can make up their own mind on that one.

[Snipe Watson]

I take it that you believe racism to be wrong and would lovingly explain to your children why it is wrong?
I believe Christianity to be correct and in the very same manner I have taught my children about what I believe to be correct. I have also taught them to not be homophobic, to be honest, to be respectful of others, etc.
If I believe something to be right, I teach it to my children as being correct. If I think something is one of a number of plausible options I will explain it that way.

I agree with that Snipe, it is better to explain to children why racism is wrong than simply to tell them it is wrong. I do talk about the teachings of Christ to my children because he was correct on so many things like non judging etc. I don't lead to them to do the knowledge that Christianity, with the view of a supernatural God, is true. They can make up their own mind on that one.

Well I wouldn't expect you to teach them that a supernatural God is real if you don't accept it yourself. One of my bugbears about many Christians is that they expect non Christians to live by a Christian 'code'. Christianity is not an intellectual exercise it is an exercise in personal faith. Some will come back and say, how very convenient, you have no evidence..... I reply, how very inconvenient, I have no evidence. If I had evidence, everyone would believe, but no one would have faith.

[Dave]

I take it that you believe racism to be wrong and would lovingly explain to your children why it is wrong?
I believe Christianity to be correct and in the very same manner I have taught my children about what I believe to be correct. I have also taught them to not be homophobic, to be honest, to be respectful of others, etc.
If I believe something to be right, I teach it to my children as being correct. If I think something is one of a number of plausible options I will explain it that way.

I agree with that Snipe, it is better to explain to children why racism is wrong than simply to tell them it is wrong. I do talk about the teachings of Christ to my children because he was correct on so many things like non judging etc. I don't lead to them to do the knowledge that Christianity, with the view of a supernatural God, is true. They can make up their own mind on that one.

Well I wouldn't expect you to teach them that a supernatural God is real if you don't accept it yourself. One of my bugbears about many Christians is that they expect non Christians to live by a Christian 'code'. Christianity is not an intellectual exercise it is an exercise in personal faith. Some will come back and say, how very convenient, you have no evidence..... I reply, how very inconvenient, I have no evidence. If I had evidence, everyone would believe, but no one would have faith.

Very true Snipe, but if our salvation depends on blind faith without evidence, it is perverse in my view.

[Snipe Watson]

Sorry I should have said tangible evidence. I have evidence, but it's not tangible. So I can't wheel it out for all to see.

[Dave]

Sorry I should have said tangible evidence. I have evidence, but it's not tangible. So I can't wheel it out for all to see.

What is it then?

[Snipe Watson]

Sorry I should have said tangible evidence. I have evidence, but it's not tangible. So I can't wheel it out for all to see.

What is it then?

Therein lies the problem......

[rumncoke]

There are those in many religions who consider you earn Salvation and those who consider salvation is a gift in my book the weird ones are the former