London Bridge

[BaggyTrousers]

As I mentioned, a lot of the anti-terror legislation has been for the politicians to give the illusion they are doing something.

Calls to prevent encryption on the internet, or mass surveillance of the internet also show how clueless the politicians are and these fall into the "something must be done and this is something..." category.

Absolutely correct, the internet obviously is as good an aid for terrorists as it is for me & you, frankly I'm happy my financial transactions are encrypted, there are more fraudsters than terrorists about.

I think it is much easier to see something useful being achieved through stopping Tory cuts to security services rather than idiots who know no more than me about the internet posturing for their own aims.

Frankly, I'd like to see May resign before Thursday for her disgraceful short-sighted slashing of numbers in all aspects of security. She would prefer we blame the guys who saw nothing concrete to prove that Khuram Butt an active threat rather than just a mouthpiece.

Furthermore and finally, for now, many have thought that utter gobshite Donald Trump should not be accorded a Royal Visit and with his disgraceful attack on Sadiq Khan, on the back of his equally disgraceful decision on the Paris Accord, it's time that the invite was withdrawn.

To hell with the excuse that he is the POTUS & head of our dearest allies, the man is a wing-nutbastard who should be barred from entry until he learns a few manners, he was a bully at school, he is still a bully. Attacking Khan, for an 18-month-old grudge, when blood had still not dried on the streets of London is a step too far for me. Orangebastard. I know May is a woman but surely she must have some balls.

[Neil F]

As I mentioned, a lot of the anti-terror legislation has been for the politicians to give the illusion they are doing something.

Calls to prevent encryption on the internet, or mass surveillance of the internet also show how clueless the politicians are and these fall into the "something must be done and this is something..." category.

I'm actually less sure. I can't help but feel sometimes politicians use it as a convenient excuse to enact stuff that they want to enact that, in normal circumstances, would prove unpopular. This nonsense about the internet is a part of the Tory manifesto and has been something May has been trying to implement for a fair while. People are more willing to accept policies that impinge on basic freedoms in the aftermath of terrorist attacks(1). Governments know this and take the excuse. If it just so happens that it also gives the impression of doing something, well then all the better...

...and isn't that a deeply disturbing thought about the people who run the country?

(1): https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... rom_the_UK

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Pretty low impact factor for that journal.

What's the betting that the paper was rejected by higher ranked journals before ending up in that one?

just saying .....

[Neil F]

Pretty low impact factor for that journal.

What's the betting that the paper was rejected by higher ranked journals before ending up in that one?

just saying .....

Quite possibly... But not really sure what that has to do with anything?

[mikerob]

As I mentioned, a lot of the anti-terror legislation has been for the politicians to give the illusion they are doing something.

Calls to prevent encryption on the internet, or mass surveillance of the internet also show how clueless the politicians are and these fall into the "something must be done and this is something..." category.

I'm actually less sure. I can't help but feel sometimes politicians use it as a convenient excuse to enact stuff that they want to enact that, in normal circumstances, would prove unpopular. This nonsense about the internet is a part of the Tory manifesto and has been something May has been trying to implement for a fair while. People are more willing to accept policies that impinge on basic freedoms in the aftermath of terrorist attacks(1). Governments know this and take the excuse. If it just so happens that it also gives the impression of doing something, well then all the better...

...and isn't that a deeply disturbing thought about the people who run the country?

I think you are correct that authoritarian politicians who want to try and control things will use terrorism as an excuse to try and control things.

I don't think all politicians are necessarily control freaks but it definitely looks like May is one by nature.

[shamalicious]

Furthermore and finally, for now, many have thought that utter gobshite Donald Trump should not be accorded a Royal Visit and with his disgraceful attack on Sadiq Khan, on the back of his equally disgraceful decision on the Paris Accord, it's time that the invite was withdrawn.

To hell with the excuse that he is the POTUS & head of our dearest allies, the man is a wing-nutbastard who should be barred from entry until he learns a few manners, he was a bully at school, he is still a bully. Attacking Khan, for an 18-month-old grudge, when blood had still not dried on the streets of London is a step too far for me. Orangebastard. I know May is a woman but surely she must have some balls.

Not to mention the amount of security /police needed for such a visit.

[Cockatrice]

Furthermore and finally, for now, many have thought that utter gobshite Donald Trump should not be accorded a Royal Visit and with his disgraceful attack on Sadiq Khan, on the back of his equally disgraceful decision on the Paris Accord, it's time that the invite was withdrawn.

To hell with the excuse that he is the POTUS & head of our dearest allies, the man is a wing-nutbastard who should be barred from entry until he learns a few manners, he was a bully at school, he is still a bully. Attacking Khan, for an 18-month-old grudge, when blood had still not dried on the streets of London is a step too far for me. Orangebastard. I know May is a woman but surely she must have some balls.

Not to mention the amount of security /police needed for such a visit.

They could probably do it on the cheap compared to many of the public events that have and will take place.. I reckon Trump will be kept behind closed doors and swept from function to meeting to function... Two events in Manchester last weekend must have stretched the police to beyond its capacity... plus two Cup Finals the week end before and a cricket competition currently being played... all placing immense pressure on an already cracking CT policing capacity.

[Rooster]

Trump need a good boot up the hole and chucked in the Thames.

[BaggyTrousers]

Just a point of information for those who buy into the horrors of immigration.

Amongst the people who distinguished themselves in and around London Bridge were the following immigrants:

- An Australian nurse, murdered when she ran in to help those knocked over by the van
- A Romanian Baker who ran at the scumbags armed only with two bread pallets
- A Spanish Lawyer who ran to defend a woman being stabbed, armed with a skateboard, stabbed himself & his whereabouts remains unknown, perhaps dead.

Who knows what Geoff Ho's background is but he's not your typical Brit albeit he could well be born and raised here. Good lad helped a bouncer beat off "two arseholes", his words, then straight into a row with the three deadfuc'kpigs.

Maybe immigrants aren't just here to sponge off the state.

Tonight in a desperate attempt to be strong on terrorism, May says "fuc'k all human rights laws, I'll overturn them". Pretty typical to go for a soft little englander hate, human rights. She is clearly worried though I'm confident the bitch will be back.

[Bart S]

Wasn't Trump going to get one of his boys to rustle up a foolproof plan to beat ISIS in 30 days? People are dying while we wait...

[Pablo]

Lots of comment about rounds expended, automatic fire etc here which is ill informed. Something to bear in mind
The Sig rifles used cannot be fired on automatic. Single shots or bursts of three.
The firearms officers follow a standard protocol which is to stop the killing as quickly as possible. Basically hitting the target until it ceases to pose a threat. The officers had seconds to make their decisions.
The terrorists were probably visible to several officers who had viable and SAFE shot opportunities and wanted to stop the killing.
The terrorists involved in the Belgian and French atrocities had been taking drugs which gave them a boost and made them hard to stop. It took in excess of thirty rounds to kill one of the Belgian terrorists.
Once the terrorists were down the officers would have been able to tell fairly quickly that the vests were fake.
Bomb technicians responded to the scene.
Shooting people in the head in low light, high intensity situations is well and good on computer games and controlled ranges but somewhat different in reality. As is facing a target who has the potential to kill you in game that you can't restart.
All in all the Met did a first class job.

[BaggyTrousers]

Lots of comment about rounds expended, automatic fire etc here which is ill informed. Something to bear in mind
The Sig rifles used cannot be fired on automatic. Single shots or bursts of three.
The firearms officers follow a standard protocol which is to stop the killing as quickly as possible. Basically hitting the target until it ceases to pose a threat. The officers had seconds to make their decisions.
The terrorists were probably visible to several officers who had viable and SAFE shot opportunities and wanted to stop the killing.
The terrorists involved in the Belgian and French atrocities had been taking drugs which gave them a boost and made them hard to stop. It took in excess of thirty rounds to kill one of the Belgian terrorists.
Once the terrorists were down the officers would have been able to tell fairly quickly that the vests were fake.
Bomb technicians responded to the scene.
Shooting people in the head in low light, high intensity situations is well and good on computer games and controlled ranges but somewhat different in reality. As is facing a target who has the potential to kill you in game that you can't restart.
All in all the Met did a first class job.

Sounds about right to me, they did what was necessary, that is what you expect of the police. I'm happy as Larry.

I do think that the big cities need to have more armed police, especially at peak times when crowds are expected. A whole lot easier to make work than some daft spindly failed politician/PM who thinks she can fix everything on the internet.

[Rooster]

Lots of comment about rounds expended, automatic fire etc here which is ill informed. Something to bear in mind
The Sig rifles used cannot be fired on automatic. Single shots or bursts of three.
The firearms officers follow a standard protocol which is to stop the killing as quickly as possible. Basically hitting the target until it ceases to pose a threat. The officers had seconds to make their decisions.
The terrorists were probably visible to several officers who had viable and SAFE shot opportunities and wanted to stop the killing.
The terrorists involved in the Belgian and French atrocities had been taking drugs which gave them a boost and made them hard to stop. It took in excess of thirty rounds to kill one of the Belgian terrorists.
Once the terrorists were down the officers would have been able to tell fairly quickly that the vests were fake.
Bomb technicians responded to the scene.
Shooting people in the head in low light, high intensity situations is well and good on computer games and controlled ranges but somewhat different in reality. As is facing a target who has the potential to kill you in game that you can't restart.
All in all the Met did a first class job.

Still extremely stupid for an officer to approach the bodies and make a decision on the quality of bomb vest, if you think otherwise you are totally daft Pablo, the sounding like automatic may have been several officers sending bursts of 3 if what you say is correct about guns used and those were the actual weapons used they also use Heckler and Koch which can go auto, it all depends which outfit attended as there are various lots of armed forces in London

[promenader 2]

from the images coming out it seems that all three attackers were shot in that one street as the bodies can be seen outside the pub.. the police are seen standing over the bodies and I was told in one case seen turning one over... I suspect they will have to revisit this and learn some lessons very quickly because had they been bombers even after being shot hey could still have exploded..

My thoughts go to the British Transport Police Officer who tackled all three with a baton and suffered serious injuries as his actions saved lives as with the off duty (rugby player ) officer who also confronted them at one stage. Two other police officers were also injured it appears although not clear how.. stories that several police officers ran away I hope are only misinformation.

I feel for those relatives of the so called ones that are still missing which I presume is a new way to explain not being identified.

One of the attacker lived in Dublin and another it seems was from Italy which will open up a discussion agin on open borders and easy access although in the case of the Italian one he had been refused going to Syria so it will be interesting to see if the Brits were informed..

Whilst our security services may be amongst the best the situation in this country for some years has been dire.. it is just we keep ignoring it and it has ben an accident waiting to happen.. now it has three times in a month suddenly some difficult questions may need to get asked.. The worrying thing for me is that some of them have been reported on more than one occasions but despite all the so called anti terrorism legislation we have you often find it is not possible to lock someone up due to lack of any evidence and a court and prison system that is also failing..

If we had 23,000 so called hard line supporters then we needed to do something about it way back and if we start now it will take some catch up.. so expect more mistakes.

I noticed at the time of the Westminster attack in March reports that one police officer had run off 'to get help' leaving PC Keith Palmer on his own.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/22/eyewitnes ... t-6526864/
I'm not condemning this police officer, or any others, who find themselves in similar, terrifying situations. I know without doubt, however, that in those kind of circumstances, I personally would feel a whole lot braver if I had a side arm to reach for.

[Cockatrice]

The SIG tends to be the favoured weapon of the CT-SFO (that’s those nice chaps in the grey/green combat suits that have appeared recently) who are trained to a higher CT standard than their SCO counterparts. They not only drive armoured wagons but also use the much under-valued pump action available to them that other don’t and which could have proved useful in this type of incident.

News reports suggested that it was SO-19 (although it has been SCO-19 for some years) that tackled the attackers. These officers like their CTSFO counterparts are armed but instead use marked police vehicles and favour the H&K range. Strangely for me weapons should be locked in a safe in the rear of the vehicle. They also operate covertly in unmarked vehicles as well.

The Met has an array of various armed options at its disposal both overt and covert. If we look at the Westminster attack it was a plain-clothes protection officer for one of the HMG Ministers that shot that terrorist.

However whether they be SIG's or H&K either 5.56 or 7.62 they are for the most part high powered for a busy urban street where missing a target can present danger for just about anyone on two legs within a few hundred metres when firing 50 shots.. I hope to hear soon that 49 of the rounds went into the feckers one it was just one unfortunate shot that hit the American tourist upstairs in the bar.

The pictures show what appear to be three terrorists lying in the same street with both uniformed and plainclothes police officers standing over two of the bodies. Given the so-called risk of a bomb detonating then the area should have been immediately cleared. It is stated that bomb disposal was called but if anyone could direct me to that evidence/information I would appreciate it…

The officers in question would not have the training to make such an assessment in seconds that the suicide vests were not potential bombs and hoaking at it and the body was plain stupid. As an aside pumping rounds into a ‘bomb vest’ could have set it off hence why CT training can extend to head-shots. Trained experts with the correct equipment using night scopes with ‘red dots’ then a headshot to a standing target a few metres away is more like a computer game than you might think.

The Met will be analysing this inside out and lessons will undoubtedly be learnt and this may well be their first operational terrorist incident in which they have shot targets dead.

Use of firearms by police is indeed governed by protocols too many to run through ones head when faced with these types of incidents. It is one reason why the Met and other forces are finding problems with officers wanting to be trained in the use of firearms because of the fear of facing a court somewhere down the road when hindsight becomes that wonderful thing that others throw in the face… why did you not do this why did you not do that.

I notice for example that the Assistant Commissioner is to date being (deliberately) vague on the exact number of rounds that were fired… there is of course a reason for that.

As for police running not sure what the truth behind any of that is but if any did they need to take a long hard look at themselves and at those that stood and fought including the British Transport Officer who is a true hero..

Interesting to read several reports (still not making TV) about the fact that police recorded an ISIL cell in Barking last month planning an attack in London using a white van and knives… Sounds like they may have a lot to explain..