And today, joining the underground .....

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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Dave wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:46 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
Acceptance that there is a Creator God requires an entirely different worldview that places God at the centre as a supernatural being who exists in a realm beyond space and time. Space and time being part of His creation.
You may view this as conveniently packaged fairy story which is fine. I don't expect a non-believer to see things as a believer does. Nor do I believe that I can convince you through the amazing logic of my argument.
Taking the atheistic view that we are just randomly evolved bundles of cells and chemicals, by definition requires that there is no God. That is the non-negotiable starting point. Therefore there is no mutually agreeable starting point for discussion. You pick which miracle you're going to hang your hat on. Either the supernatural miracle of creation by God or the supernatural miracle of everything from nothing. Willingness to at least consider the contrary position will create a platform for discussion, but standing firmly on a hill shouting at people on another hill is pointless.
I am open to a supernatural God creating the universe. Just provide the evidence on how you're so convinced on a particular version. I'm not an atheistic, so this doesn't boil down to evolution versus Christianity. Evolutionary theory is theoretical, there many flaws and gaps in the knowledge. They can at least demonstrate how or why a particular explanation is theorised, because the scientific method demands experimentation or observation of such things.

You guys are saying not only, did (a particular) God create the universe but also you have relationship with this God. How do you logically explain this?
There are gaps in the knowledge of how many critters have evolved, but to say Evolution is theoretical seems a bit strange. Evolution is fact - it is happening all around us and for me undeniable. Yes, there are gaps in the evolutionary record, (indeed it can be like looking at a thousand piece jigsaw with 980 of the pieces missing - not easy to know what the picture is like, but some are always willing to say they know) but not gaps in the knowledge of how evolution progresses.

What I do think is a problem though is that people confuse creation with evolution. Before something evolves, it first has to be. It has to exist in a living state, and only then can it evolve and some critters have evolved a lot over the millennia, while others don't seem to have evolved much, or even at all once they have reached a certain stage of development.

The creation bit is the confusing thing though - one either believes in the miracle creation of life by a supreme being or the miracle of life out of nothing. One is no more or less miraculous than the other - but I don't blame the Nazis (or Godwin) for that.


And yes, at the time of writing, Godwin is still alive - the jury's still out though on whether Hitler is alive and well and living in Argentina (aged 140).

PS - I might be wrong! :shock:
I'm not arguing -
I'm just explaining why I'm right
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Dave wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:28 pm
Hawkeye wrote:Explain infinity. If you believe in infinity then all things are possible.
Exactly. I've rarely heard a religious type express the thought they might be wrong.
Yer not talking to the right people - I've known plenty who have expressed the thought they might be wrong - but most of those try to continue as if they're not. That's why it's called "faith". If it was certainty, we'd all be in the know ... even Hitler ... and Godwin.
I'm not arguing -
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Snipe Watson
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Snipe Watson »

Dave wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 5:46 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
Acceptance that there is a Creator God requires an entirely different worldview that places God at the centre as a supernatural being who exists in a realm beyond space and time. Space and time being part of His creation.
You may view this as conveniently packaged fairy story which is fine. I don't expect a non-believer to see things as a believer does. Nor do I believe that I can convince you through the amazing logic of my argument.
Taking the atheistic view that we are just randomly evolved bundles of cells and chemicals, by definition requires that there is no God. That is the non-negotiable starting point. Therefore there is no mutually agreeable starting point for discussion. You pick which miracle you're going to hang your hat on. Either the supernatural miracle of creation by God or the supernatural miracle of everything from nothing. Willingness to at least consider the contrary position will create a platform for discussion, but standing firmly on a hill shouting at people on another hill is pointless.
I am open to a supernatural God creating the universe. Just provide the evidence on how you're so convinced on a particular version. I'm not an atheistic, so this doesn't boil down to evolution versus Christianity. Evolutionary theory is theoretical, there many flaws and gaps in the knowledge. They can at least demonstrate how or why a particular explanation is theorised, because the scientific method demands experimentation or observation of such things.

You guys are saying not only, did (a particular) God create the universe but also you have relationship with this God. How do you logically explain this?
Good question
Couple of points
There is a common assumption that Christianity and science are inextricably at odds with each other. There are those who, for their own reasons, want to see battle lines drawn and it grinds my gears, as it is absolutely not the case. Christianity does not blindly fly in the face of demonstrable scientific evidence. The conflict occurs when a quantum leap is taken such as the one from demonstrable evolution of a species to the declaration of speciation as a "proven fact".

My relationship with God and why I regard Him as creator is much more simple. God's Word says that He wants to have a personal relationship with us and he will reveal Himself to us if we seek him. If you're looking for irrefutable proof, you'll not find it. Faith does require a measure of...faith! But evidence is there for those who genuinely look for it.
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solidarity
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by solidarity »

Dave wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:28 pm
Hawkeye wrote:Explain infinity. If you believe in infinity then all things are possible.
Exactly. I've rarely heard a religious type express the thought they might be wrong.
If you've met very few, I'll add to that wee number. There are many things about which I could be wrong, not least my belief in a God, a key part of whose interaction with the unverse, and humanity in particular, has been described in the Bible. If I'm wrong, I'll face the consequences.

Infinity may be difficult to explain, but it's not difficult to experience. Explanations aren't all they're cracked up to be. You could say that a circle is an infinite number of infinitely small straight lines, each at an infinitely small angle to the previous one. Even if that is debatable, everyone agrees that a circle has an infinite number of lines of symmetry. Wierd, yet we experience circles every day. Difficult to explain, easy to experience.

My experience of God is not straightforward to explain, but I'm at ease with the experience.
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:53 pm . . . - the jury's still out though on whether Hitler is alive and well and living in Argentina (aged 140).

PS - I might be wrong! :shock:
I was wrong. >EW

Hitler would only only be 132. :shock:


Deliberate mistake?


Maybe.


Maybe not. :stir:
I'm not arguing -
I'm just explaining why I'm right
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solidarity
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by solidarity »

Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 9:53 pm
Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:53 pm . . . - the jury's still out though on whether Hitler is alive and well and living in Argentina (aged 140).

PS - I might be wrong! :shock:
I was wrong. >EW

Hitler would only only be 132. :shock:


Deliberate mistake?


Maybe.


Maybe not. :stir:
Shirley to acuse yourself of being wrong would be heresy. You would then have to burn yourself at the stake. :shock:
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solidarity
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by solidarity »

Can't remember where I heard the claim, 'Yes, I did make a mistake once. I thought I was wrong but found out later that I wasn't.'
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by jean valjean »

solidarity wrote:
Dave wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:28 pm
Hawkeye wrote:Explain infinity. If you believe in infinity then all things are possible.
Exactly. I've rarely heard a religious type express the thought they might be wrong.
If you've met very few, I'll add to that wee number. There are many things about which I could be wrong, not least my belief in a God, a key part of whose interaction with the unverse, and humanity in particular, has been described in the Bible. If I'm wrong, I'll face the consequences.

Infinity may be difficult to explain, but it's not difficult to experience. Explanations aren't all they're cracked up to be. You could say that a circle is an infinite number of infinitely small straight lines, each at an infinitely small angle to the previous one. Even if that is debatable, everyone agrees that a circle has an infinite number of lines of symmetry. Wierd, yet we experience circles every day. Difficult to explain, easy to experience.

My experience of God is not straightforward to explain, but I'm at ease with the experience.
Solids, fully respect your belief and am glad you have a relationship with your God. Please don't take this as having a go but how can you be sure that the god you have grown up knowing through the bible is the one true god? There are a huge number of religons in the world who believe in 'their god' so do you feel you have been lucky to be born into the right country, family, religion or have you looked at the others and came to the conclusion the bible is the one true message? As has been said before if there are 3000 religions and you believe in one, then we both deny the other 2999 religons. An atheist believes in just one less than you.
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by pwrmoore »

Snipe Watson wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:31 pm
pwrmoore wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:59 am
Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:17 pm
Dave wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:58 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
How do you work that one out :scratch:
Knew about the premeditated plan. Supplied the means.

Guilty as charged.
Okay, you're not really comparing apples with apples. If God is God, His relationship to His creation is not as simple as you appear to think it is.
If (for the sake of argument) Elon Musk were to produce a group of self-replicating robots with the ability to 'think' for themselves, make their own decisions and to build anything they could conceive, and then a number of replications later they conceived and built weapons and started to destroy everything around them. Would you consider Elon to have no responsibility for their development and actions?
Elon is still not God though. He's good, but not God.
So would you consider him responsible or not?
Paul.

C'mon Ulsterrrrrrrrr! :red:
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by justinr73 »

Back on topic, RIP Lionel Blair.

He’ll be playing charades with Una already.
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Snipe Watson
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Snipe Watson »

pwrmoore wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:04 pm
Snipe Watson wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:31 pm
pwrmoore wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:59 am
Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:17 pm
Dave wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:58 pm Knew about the premeditated plan. Supplied the means.

Guilty as charged.
Okay, you're not really comparing apples with apples. If God is God, His relationship to His creation is not as simple as you appear to think it is.
If (for the sake of argument) Elon Musk were to produce a group of self-replicating robots with the ability to 'think' for themselves, make their own decisions and to build anything they could conceive, and then a number of replications later they conceived and built weapons and started to destroy everything around them. Would you consider Elon to have no responsibility for their development and actions?
Elon is still not God though. He's good, but not God.
So would you consider him responsible or not?
I'd need to hear a bit more evidence before coming to a conclusion. Rushing to judgement is foolish in my experience.
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

solidarity wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 10:30 pm Shirley to acuse yourself of being wrong would be heresy. You would then have to burn yourself at the stake. :shock:
Accusing one's self of being wrong is not heresy, - hearsay perhaps, but not heresy. At best it is just reasonable or understandable doubt, at worst, a lack of faith. Or perhaps those are one and the same thing. I know many believers who have had doubts, but still cling to the(ir) faith. Indeed I would contend that if one has never doubted their faith, one has either been very lucky (and I don't believe in luck), or they haven't looked into their beliefs too deeply.

Heresy is to promote something that goes against the religion, not simply lacking in belief in that religion.

And anyway, I'd rather have a burnt steak as be burned at the stake.

I would actually prefer one that wasn't burnt, but maybe that's asking too much.

Better still, would be one that is seared on the outside but still raw (but warm) inside, with a little blood still running out - "rare" I think they call it, but I prefer to describe it as one that a good vet could still revive.
I'm not arguing -
I'm just explaining why I'm right
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by Setanta »

You missed the great Harry Ferguson, hero of farmers near and far.
From the rolling glens of Antrim through the hills of Donegal we will stand and shout for Ulster as we win both scrum and maul from the lovely lakes of Fermanagh tae the shores of ould Lough Gall we will scream and shout for Ulster as we beat them one and all!
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by big mervyn »

justinr73 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:16 pm Back on topic, RIP Lionel Blair.

He’ll be playing charades with Una already.
You should have given us a clue first,
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Re: And today, joining the underground .....

Post by justinr73 »

big mervyn wrote: Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:44 am
justinr73 wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:16 pm Back on topic, RIP Lionel Blair.

He’ll be playing charades with Una already.
You should have given us a clue first,
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Damn; too late.
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