It's St. Patricks Day, a day when people bend over backwards to prove themselves Irish and perhaps not the best time to admit to not feeling much Irishness when Ireland run out at Twickers tomorrow. Not that I have much affinity with England either, it's just a growing distance between me, my emotions and the Ireland rugby team. Perhaps it's the lack of connection with most of the team, or the sight of a lone Ulsterman or the treatment of Humphreys within the Irish set up or even the realisation that there is a cabal of Munster and Leinster players running the show.
Whatever there will be no swelling with pride at the sight of the men in green just a dimly felt link to the fact that I'm watching Munster and Leinster and a couple of token others thrown in.
Sorry if this offends people but I must be honest about it and say my affinity lies with the Ulster rugby team, all nine counties of it. Speaking here in a rugby context before I'm taken out and shot at dawn metaphorically speaking for admitting such un pc thoughts.
Irishness and watching Ireland..
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EOS will not be coach for ever and our day will come again.
In the mean time, Andrew Trimble will line out on Saturday and I for one will be immensely proud of the fact that one of the most promising players in these islands, and a fine young man to boot, hails from our own. If I had my way he would be joined out there by several of his Ulster team mates.
Do I care about Ireland winning on Saturday? For Andrew Trimble, the Ulster lads on the bench and the Ulster guys in Ireland A who will hopefully make the senior squad soon: too firkin right I do.
In the mean time, Andrew Trimble will line out on Saturday and I for one will be immensely proud of the fact that one of the most promising players in these islands, and a fine young man to boot, hails from our own. If I had my way he would be joined out there by several of his Ulster team mates.
Do I care about Ireland winning on Saturday? For Andrew Trimble, the Ulster lads on the bench and the Ulster guys in Ireland A who will hopefully make the senior squad soon: too firkin right I do.
I'll not disagree with your sentiments Barney, just have a certain sense of alienation personally.barney wrote:EOS will not be coach for ever and our day will come again.
In the mean time, Andrew Trimble will line out on Saturday and I for one will be immensely proud of the fact that one of the most promising players in these islands, and a fine young man to boot, hails from our own. If I had my way he would be joined out there by several of his Ulster team mates.
Do I care about Ireland winning on Saturday? For Andrew Trimble, the Ulster lads on the bench and the Ulster guys in Ireland A who will hopefully make the senior squad soon: too firkin right I do.
A very interesting post. I sympathise with your thoughts.
I think you'd be right to say that there's not much love for the 6 counties in Irish rugby. According to the Irish Times last week, many southern rugby journalists now sit down during Ireland's Call at Lansdowne, as some sort of protest...
That sort of thing really pisses me off. But a lot of the ways southerners treat the north pi$h me off.
On the other hand, I'm an Ulsterman and an Irish national, so I don't care if the players come from Ballymena, Blackrock or Bruff. And slights from the southerners annoy me less than slights from the 'mainland' - at least the southeners don't profess to have any role in NI (any more).
All of this stuff is very difficult. I sometimes feel that Ravenhill isn't a hugely welcoming place for Nationalists, but I ignore it because I don't sense any outright hostility, I feel passionately about Ulster Rugby, and I know that Unionists must feel the same in D4.
I think, in the end, it's great for rugby in on the island of Ireland if we win in Twickers. And that's why you should support them. There might be a shift towards the Munster/Leinster axis at the moment, but these things are cyclical, and Ulster will get back there soon enough.
And you'll probably be pleased to know that when I've spoken to people from the Republic about Trimble, they don't say 'sure he's just a god-botherer from the 6 counties, bring back Hickie' (as one might expect), they talk about his strength and speed and talent.
I think you'd be right to say that there's not much love for the 6 counties in Irish rugby. According to the Irish Times last week, many southern rugby journalists now sit down during Ireland's Call at Lansdowne, as some sort of protest...
That sort of thing really pisses me off. But a lot of the ways southerners treat the north pi$h me off.
On the other hand, I'm an Ulsterman and an Irish national, so I don't care if the players come from Ballymena, Blackrock or Bruff. And slights from the southerners annoy me less than slights from the 'mainland' - at least the southeners don't profess to have any role in NI (any more).
All of this stuff is very difficult. I sometimes feel that Ravenhill isn't a hugely welcoming place for Nationalists, but I ignore it because I don't sense any outright hostility, I feel passionately about Ulster Rugby, and I know that Unionists must feel the same in D4.
I think, in the end, it's great for rugby in on the island of Ireland if we win in Twickers. And that's why you should support them. There might be a shift towards the Munster/Leinster axis at the moment, but these things are cyclical, and Ulster will get back there soon enough.
And you'll probably be pleased to know that when I've spoken to people from the Republic about Trimble, they don't say 'sure he's just a god-botherer from the 6 counties, bring back Hickie' (as one might expect), they talk about his strength and speed and talent.
Aaron, perhaps this off at a tangent and worthy of another thread. I have heard this comment before from others. Can you be specific about what it is at Ravenhill that makes you feel unwelcome? I only ask as I don't feel any unwelcome signs myself. Though I should stress that I'm not from a Nationalist tradition myself.aarons wrote: All of this stuff is very difficult. I sometimes feel that Ravenhill isn't a hugely welcoming place for Nationalists, but I ignore it because I don't sense any outright hostility, I feel passionately about Ulster Rugby, and I know that Unionists must feel the same in D4.
I REALLY don't mean to overstate it, as it doesn't happen very often.ballpark wrote: Aaron, perhaps this off at a tangent and worthy of another thread. I have heard this comment before from others. Can you be specific about what it is at Ravenhill that makes you feel unwelcome? I only ask as I don't feel any unwelcome signs myself. Though I should stress that I'm not from a Nationalist tradition myself.
There are some symbols I don't think are appropriate at Ravers. For example, I don't think people should fly the NI flag (or what people think is the NI flag) to support Ulster (though I know why people do, and I'd never suggest people should be stopped from bringing it).
Sometimes you see the NI flag with the Union Flag in the corner, which if you ask CAIN, is a UDA flag. I don't like to see that.
Basically, every time I see a British symbol, I get to thinking that I don't know if I'd be safe brandishing an RoI symbol (not that I would). Which makes me wonder if Ravers is really welcoming me. Which bugs me, as I want it to.
Does that make sense?
I wasn't aware of that association which makes me wonder how many of the people carrying it would be. Too often we aren't always aware of the full symbolism of things.aarons wrote:Sometimes you see the NI flag with the Union Flag in the corner, which if you ask CAIN, is a UDA flag. I don't like to see that.
True. It'd be impossible to know what every symbol means to one individual or another, symbolism being a fairly subjective business.barney wrote:I wasn't aware of that association which makes me wonder how many of the people carrying it would be. Too often we aren't always aware of the full symbolism of things.aarons wrote:Sometimes you see the NI flag with the Union Flag in the corner, which if you ask CAIN, is a UDA flag. I don't like to see that.
I suspect a lot of people wave the NI flag because they've bought them from street traders outside the gates. I'd much rather see the 9-county Ulster flag flown but you have to go out of your way to find one of those. I doubt if many fliers of the NI flag have put too much thought into it to be honest. But I don't approve of anything that would make any fan or (or visitor) uncomfortable at ravenhill.
(edited to correct dreadful typing and try to make the post make some sense)
(edited to correct dreadful typing and try to make the post make some sense)
Last edited by pwrmoore on Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Paul.
C'mon Ulsterrrrrrrrr!
C'mon Ulsterrrrrrrrr!
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browner
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To hell with the pc brigade BP, you have certainly struck a chord here.
I suspect that many feel like you do and its difficult to explain why.
I've never felt unwelcome in Lansdowne or in the ROI in general and the playing of the Soldiers song and the flying of the Tricolour has never bothered me at all, at least in a rugby context.
But it's true that i have more affinity with Ulster than with Ireland and in rugby terms thats a strange thing to say.
I've touched on the flag issue with aaron previously and like yourself it's something i find hard to understand again in a rugby context, ( the UDA have no right to any British symbol any more than the IRA have to the tricolour) maybe 30 years of being at each others throats has left scars that can't be healed.
There.............got that of me chest.
ps, great thread BP.
I suspect that many feel like you do and its difficult to explain why.
I've never felt unwelcome in Lansdowne or in the ROI in general and the playing of the Soldiers song and the flying of the Tricolour has never bothered me at all, at least in a rugby context.
But it's true that i have more affinity with Ulster than with Ireland and in rugby terms thats a strange thing to say.
I've touched on the flag issue with aaron previously and like yourself it's something i find hard to understand again in a rugby context, ( the UDA have no right to any British symbol any more than the IRA have to the tricolour) maybe 30 years of being at each others throats has left scars that can't be healed.
There.............got that of me chest.
ps, great thread BP.
Stand up for PICU R.V.H.
Good riposte Browner. I have no problem with the Northern Ireland flag at Ulster games as its the flag of my country and the country in which Ravenhill is located strangely enough. I was not aware of the paramilitary connotations of some of the flag symbols referred to and must be honest and say that I have not ever been aware of paramiltary type emblems at Ravers. (Not saying they haven't been there by the way).
Basically the more flags the merrier, for example I will always have in my memory a picture of the Terrace during the 99 semi final with Stade and those red and white chequered flags fairly flew in the breeze and added to the whole atmosphere of the ocasion. I have always thought that the red and white chequered flags should be a symbol of Ulster rugby but i don't have a problem with the NI flag or the true Ulster yellow and red cross flag either.
To be blunt about it though the flying of the Tricolour at Ravers whilst purely in a rugby context is acceptable I would suggest that given the context in which that flag is sometimes, 'in yer face' in another context then it is probably not a good idea for practical reasons to unfurl it at Ravers. I do not believe that that is a snub to Nationalists but more it is a practical recognition of difficulties that we still face in relation to political symbols.
Have to say that in the context of rugby and having played the game in the nine counties of Ulster I have never in 14 years of playing the game came across any overt secatarianism. Others may have had different experiences but my own journey through Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Antrim, Down and the rest has been an uplifting one in the context of rugby as a purely non secetarian sport.
Basically the more flags the merrier, for example I will always have in my memory a picture of the Terrace during the 99 semi final with Stade and those red and white chequered flags fairly flew in the breeze and added to the whole atmosphere of the ocasion. I have always thought that the red and white chequered flags should be a symbol of Ulster rugby but i don't have a problem with the NI flag or the true Ulster yellow and red cross flag either.
To be blunt about it though the flying of the Tricolour at Ravers whilst purely in a rugby context is acceptable I would suggest that given the context in which that flag is sometimes, 'in yer face' in another context then it is probably not a good idea for practical reasons to unfurl it at Ravers. I do not believe that that is a snub to Nationalists but more it is a practical recognition of difficulties that we still face in relation to political symbols.
Have to say that in the context of rugby and having played the game in the nine counties of Ulster I have never in 14 years of playing the game came across any overt secatarianism. Others may have had different experiences but my own journey through Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Antrim, Down and the rest has been an uplifting one in the context of rugby as a purely non secetarian sport.