Autumn International squad

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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Snipe Watson wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:20 pm
jean valjean wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:38 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:06 pm
germcevoy wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:59 pm Sexton injured again.
Yep - his HIA identified concussion of the lower leg.

His ankle and knee are now following return to play protocols.
There should be implications for teams abusing the HIA protocols. They're doing exactly what Dean Richards did with the fake blood capsule. Whoever lied to the ref should be taken to task. Once the wish to have a player eligible to return is prioritised above a protocol that should be sacrosanct, there is something seriously wrong.
To me they said it was an hia so that joey could take the immediate kick. If it was a tactical switch then he wasn't allowed to do so. There was no way sexton was coming back on but by saying it was an hia then it got ireland out of a hole at the time.
Did Janny know he wasn't coming back on?
From my viewpoint, I'm not sure Janny knew too much about anything - he had just taken a blow to the head and I thought it was a genuine HIA. Given his past injury record, do we know for certain his current condition is leg related and not concussion? He seemed to be walking ok as he went off - that is, he looked shaky but wasn't limping.

S'all smoke and mirrors - I don't believe any of them. :roll:
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

jean valjean wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:38 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:06 pm
germcevoy wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:59 pm Sexton injured again.
Yep - his HIA identified concussion of the lower leg.

His ankle and knee are now following return to play protocols.
There should be implications for teams abusing the HIA protocols. They're doing exactly what Dean Richards did with the fake blood capsule. Whoever lied to the ref should be taken to task. Once the wish to have a player eligible to return is prioritised above a protocol that should be sacrosanct, there is something seriously wrong.
To me they said it was an hia so that joey could take the immediate kick. If it was a tactical switch then he wasn't allowed to do so. There was no way sexton was coming back on but by saying it was an hia then it got ireland out of a hole at the time.
Is that correct?
AFAIK, there is no law which prevents a tactical substitute from taking an immediate penalty kick.

Some unions have a regulation which mandates that a substitute who comes on for tactical reasons may only take a penalty kick after at least one passage of play has occurred.

Do we know what regulations are in play for autumn international matches?
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Dave
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Dave »

It was the ref who said it. So the water boy piped up: 'oh yeah I think it is a HIA actually now that you mention it'.
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Snipe Watson »

:scratch: Surely Carbery could take the kick irrespective of whether it was HIA, injury or tactical.
Or is there some bizarre law that needs changing?
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by jean valjean »

Cap'n Grumpy wrote:
jean valjean wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:38 pm
Snipe Watson wrote:
Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 5:06 pm
germcevoy wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:59 pm Sexton injured again.
Yep - his HIA identified concussion of the lower leg.

His ankle and knee are now following return to play protocols.
There should be implications for teams abusing the HIA protocols. They're doing exactly what Dean Richards did with the fake blood capsule. Whoever lied to the ref should be taken to task. Once the wish to have a player eligible to return is prioritised above a protocol that should be sacrosanct, there is something seriously wrong.
To me they said it was an hia so that joey could take the immediate kick. If it was a tactical switch then he wasn't allowed to do so. There was no way sexton was coming back on but by saying it was an hia then it got ireland out of a hole at the time.
Is that correct?
AFAIK, there is no law which prevents a tactical substitute from taking an immediate penalty kick.

Some unions have a regulation which mandates that a substitute who comes on for tactical reasons may only take a penalty kick after at least one passage of play has occurred.

Do we know what regulations are in play for autumn international matches?
The ref seemed quite adamant that joey couldn't take the kick if he was a tactical sub, so he was applying that law. Whitelock was querying it also.
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Snipe Watson
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Snipe Watson »

Sounds like a daft law if it exists.
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:55 am :scratch: Surely Carbery could take the kick irrespective of whether it was HIA, injury or tactical.
Or is there some bizarre law that needs changing?
See my response above.

Competition Regulation brought in by some unions to prevent American football-like bringing on of specialists kickers etc especially near the end of a game, but not a law. Not sure it prevents that much - it just makes them look to make a temporary replacement anyway, which is unaffected by the regulation.

Not sure which Unions apply this reg - I know the (E)RFU do, but not sure of others. Perhaps refs are influenced by regulations in their own union, or mayb e they are informed of the regulations in place for particular Internationals?
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:54 pm Sounds like a daft law if it exists.
Doesn't exist as a law - ie not enforcable in all matches.

Does exist as a competition regulation, brought in by some unions. Therein lies the confusion. Which competition regulations are in force for these matches? Not allowed in English Premierborefest, but who knows about other unions or agreements between unions?
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BR
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by BR »

Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:54 pm Sounds like a daft law if it exists.
That rule is for comps that allow rolling subs.

It makes sense that you cannot sub a player on to take a kick.

IRB have been fudging this one for years. Maybe now they will clarify it properly, but I continue to both inhale and exhale.
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Snipe Watson
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Snipe Watson »

Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:56 pm
Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:55 am :scratch: Surely Carbery could take the kick irrespective of whether it was HIA, injury or tactical.
Or is there some bizarre law that needs changing?
See my response above.

Competition Regulation brought in by some unions to prevent American football-like bringing on of specialists kickers etc especially near the end of a game, but not a law. Not sure it prevents that much - it just makes them look to make a temporary replacement anyway, which is unaffected by the regulation.

Not sure which Unions apply this reg - I know the (E)RFU do, but not sure of others. Perhaps refs are influenced by regulations in their own union, or mayb e they are informed of the regulations in place for particular Internationals?
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Snipe Watson
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Snipe Watson »

BR wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:59 pm
Snipe Watson wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:54 pm Sounds like a daft law if it exists.
That rule is for comps that allow rolling subs.

It makes sense that you cannot sub a player on to take a kick.

IRB have been fudging this one for years. Maybe now they will clarify it properly, but I continue to both inhale and exhale.
That would make more sense.

Continuing to breathe is a sound strategy in most circumstances.
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by rumncoke »

I would that a substitute who takes a goal kick must stay on the pitch thereafter unless injured and then the person that retired for that substitute may not return to the field of play
Eg A replaces B — A — A takes goal kick — gets injured he must be replaced by C not B , but A may replace provide C has not taken a goal kick .ie A can not be a temporary tactical sub for B
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

eh? :scratch:


sorry . . . . A? :scratch:
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solidarity
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by solidarity »

Clearly I'm missing something here. So, some argue that a sub coming on as a sub can't take a kick but a sub coming on as an HIA sub can take a kick? Surely, if you're going to bring on a bloke as an American football kicker, you would bring him on as an HIA sub and take him off when he has taken the kick and, 'coincidentally', the HIA has been resolved. :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
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BR
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Re: Autumn International squad

Post by BR »

In theory (and traditionaly) you can't sub a player while the ball is in play. At a penalty the ball is still in play. This has been widely ignored for decades. To such an extent that with the timekeeping laws, refs often stop the clock specifically to allow subs.

IRB couldn't be asred aďdressing it and when challenged would come out with some vague clarification that could contradict their previous edict.

Add to that the blood and hia replacement regs and the returning YC players and the mess has just spiralled.

Now you have the minefield of replacements for uncontested scrums to add to the mix. For me it needs rewritten and simplified, but you're always going to be squarring the circle of encouraging player safety with the certainty that some batsards will exploit it for their own advantage.
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