Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

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Big-al
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Big-al »

rumncoke wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:25 pm Difference between Ulster and Leinster

Leinster late Tackle ( interference with chaser including trip ) no foul play --go to the line out

If that had been an Ulster player --it would have been looked at 5 times and ended with a red
Difference between ulster and Leinster?

They have Porter we have Warwick
They have Furlong we have Moore
They have Ryan, we have AOC
They have Vdf, we have Timoney

Most importantly, they have the best 10 in the NH and arguably the world and we have Billy Burns.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by rumncoke »

Big -al

You missed the point Leinster a side coached by a former player who edged the laws at every ruck -maul and line out live a life of card free rugby -- now Ulster are not Saints -- but referees definitely have not just one look at an incident in slow motion but have an endless desire to raise any incident to its worst conclusion.

Why basically Leinster get away with a lot were Ulster get penalised.

As for for reference to the best ten in NH or World that crown bit the dust about 4 seasons ago when D4 exported The best Irish out half since Jackie Kyle . ( there were a few who came close but some like Jonny were one trick ponies )

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Dave
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dave »

Let's simplify it. The difference between Leinster and Ulster: Leinster have a better team.

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Dublin4
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dublin4 »

I have had my doubts about Sexton continuing coming up to his 37th birthday but he gave a master class yesterday.
I appreciate that it is difficult for fans of the other provincial teams to endure our dominance and I would like more competition too. But it was superb rugby yesterday from both sides. Our speed of pass and recycling is something to behold.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by rumncoke »

For a professional rugby side the quality of pass was poor to many at head height or nearly behind the shoulder bad passes lead to injuries .

D4 your success is has always been based on the quality of your back row and the power of the front five and the fact that there are on the bench forwards who are equally good. The Quality of the pack is seldom weaken by injury or substitution .

A state of affairs which does not exist for any other team in the league .
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by WestDr »

Dublin4 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:54 am I appreciate that it is difficult for fans of the other provincial teams to endure our dominance and I would like more competition too. But it was superb rugby yesterday from both sides. Our speed of pass and recycling is something to behold.
d4, if 13 from 15 are full and regular starting internationals against the top teams (NZ/Fr/Eng/SA/Aus), not bench-warmers for the likes of the USA and Italy, then it's unsurprising, given the standard required at that level, that Leinster are dominant. That this preference by the IRFU to concentrate/allow the concentration of the vast majority of the current talent at one province will be only endurable provided the outcome is success for Ireland at tournaments such as the RWC 2023.

If this is not the case, and there is yet another failure to deliver at least a SF place, then the fact that Leinster are (a) subsidised by ?12? or more central contracts for their starting 15 and (b) are to a large extent protected by the IRFU's ability to control who plays for the Ireland team (i.e. go abroad and it's highly likely you're not in green), thus reducing the loss of players to France/England for more money, will be increasingly less accepted. I would expect much greater pressure for private ownership of the provinces too. The situation where, it increasingly appears, that Leinster supporters only turn out for the big games (increasingly so Munster supporters too), would mean that a fall-off in success at this level would mean that even the RDS is too big for Leinster support.

The other two external risks to Leinster's continued success would seem to me to be:
  • That the French & English sides get tired/sick of always losing to Leinster in the HC and decide to down-rate their involvement in the HC. You can add more stars to your jersey as you wish, but it'll be seen as a second-rate competition. I doubt there would be any appetite to allow Leinster into a British Isles competition (too small a TV market, too good a team and the Premiership is owned by the clubs, not the RFU - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.)
  • That the URC improves - not at the top 8 level, but at the bottom 8. So those matches v Benetton, Dragons or away in SA where Leinster can play the reserves because they're easily winnable, will disappear, and Leinster have to play their top guys far more frequently to secure the home QFs etc.
So, it's well-worth enjoying whilst you can. It's well-deserved and a testament to the choices made by the IRFU and the players. Let's hope they achieve the end goal too. Perhaps then Ireland might also get a World Cup too ? But that would very likely require a Government of Ireland financial guarantee.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Cormac »

There are nowhere near as many central contracts as you might think there are. Porter, for example, is only just moving on to one from next season, replacing Healy, who's downgrading to a provincial contract. Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Henshaw and Ringrose on central deals too. All of Doris, vd Flier, Conan,Kelleher, Keenan, Lowe and Gibson-Park are on Leinster contracts.
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Dave
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dave »

Dublin4 wrote:I have had my doubts about Sexton continuing coming up to his 37th birthday but he gave a master class yesterday.
I appreciate that it is difficult for fans of the other provincial teams to endure our dominance and I would like more competition too. But it was superb rugby yesterday from both sides. Our speed of pass and recycling is something to behold.
Sexton for me is the goat. If he can bring home euro success this year, I can't see a better irish player ever. Certainly in terms of success at club level.

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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by WestDr »

Cormac wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:19 pm There are nowhere near as many central contracts as you might think there are. Porter, for example, is only just moving on to one from next season, replacing Healy, who's downgrading to a provincial contract. Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Henshaw and Ringrose on central deals too. All of Doris, vd Flier, Conan,Kelleher, Keenan, Lowe and Gibson-Park are on Leinster contracts.
Well, Dave, I finally did what I should have done to start with - some proper research ( :lol: ). The latest (as at March 2022) I could find is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... ntracts_a/ with the sources of the data listed a little further down the thread. [Do note the 'if you know any different, please let me know' part to the table.]

From this data, you are completely correct to note only 6 from the 14 are Leinster players. Although you could be forgiven for believing that the most in-demand persons on that list are POM's and Murray's agent/s. Whilst less than I thought, 6 is still nearly 50% of the total - and let's assume, between €1.5m to €2m of salary costs not being met by the province (Furlong & Sexton both on €500k and the other four between €200k to €250k). You have to wonder how many Sam Carter's Ulster could get for €2m......?

Furthermore, looking forward, it is hard to see any of the other names on that list such as Hume, Hansen, Coombes, Timony and Bealham, being in line for central contracts before their competitors (all Leinster) who are on provincial contracts, especially coming up to the World Cup. And tbh, it seems unlikely that there are going to be few, if any beyond ?perhaps Doak, Casey and Kendellen? breaking into the Irish 1st XV in the next 12 months, unless there are major injuries. Of course, the current outlier in this whole CC thing appears to be Stockdale.....

Going back to Leinster and the end dates of some of those provincial contracts, it would seem the other risk to their ongoing success is actually a successful Irish World Cup which leads a number of their players to either retire or seek even bigger bucks in France (and are thus also able to take advantage of the tax relief when they finally return/retire).
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dave »

What?
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
Cormac
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Cormac »

WestDr wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:31 pm
Cormac wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:19 pm There are nowhere near as many central contracts as you might think there are. Porter, for example, is only just moving on to one from next season, replacing Healy, who's downgrading to a provincial contract. Furlong, Ryan, Sexton, Henshaw and Ringrose on central deals too. All of Doris, vd Flier, Conan,Kelleher, Keenan, Lowe and Gibson-Park are on Leinster contracts.
Well, Dave, I finally did what I should have done to start with - some proper research ( :lol: ). The latest (as at March 2022) I could find is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... ntracts_a/ with the sources of the data listed a little further down the thread. [Do note the 'if you know any different, please let me know' part to the table.]

From this data, you are completely correct to note only 6 from the 14 are Leinster players. Although you could be forgiven for believing that the most in-demand persons on that list are POM's and Murray's agent/s. Whilst less than I thought, 6 is still nearly 50% of the total - and let's assume, between €1.5m to €2m of salary costs not being met by the province (Furlong & Sexton both on €500k and the other four between €200k to €250k). You have to wonder how many Sam Carter's Ulster could get for €2m......?

Furthermore, looking forward, it is hard to see any of the other names on that list such as Hume, Hansen, Coombes, Timony and Bealham, being in line for central contracts before their competitors (all Leinster) who are on provincial contracts, especially coming up to the World Cup. And tbh, it seems unlikely that there are going to be few, if any beyond ?perhaps Doak, Casey and Kendellen? breaking into the Irish 1st XV in the next 12 months, unless there are major injuries. Of course, the current outlier in this whole CC thing appears to be Stockdale.....

Going back to Leinster and the end dates of some of those provincial contracts, it would seem the other risk to their ongoing success is actually a successful Irish World Cup which leads a number of their players to either retire or seek even bigger bucks in France (and are thus also able to take advantage of the tax relief when they finally return/retire).


To further update that reddit list, Henshaw has recently signed a new 3 year deal with the IRFU, while the Leinster players highlighted in orange (Kelleher, Conan and Keenan) have provincial contracts for next season.

Going by that list, the province that seems to be benefitting the most from IRFU central contracts are Munster, given only one of their four players listed is a regular starter for Ireland anymore.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dublin4 »

It is four years since Leinster won the H Cup. If we win it this year I can't see it diminishing the interest of the French or English. Why wouldn't they want to continue playing the Irish provinces, even Connacht are somewhat competitive? Toulouse have played rugby at the highest level against three of our provinces in a change from the bish bosh of the Top 14. That has to be good for them and for France.

As Cormac points out, some very good Leinster players are not on central contracts which are a red herring in this debate. The key to Leinster success is the inherent quality of the organisation and its coaching staff, plus the so called conveyor belt of talent from the small number of elite schools. The other factor is the absence in Ireland of full time professional football clubs. Dublin is remarkable for its size in not having even one properly professional football team. This makes it easy for Leinster to garner support and interest from the many who support United or LIverpool but have no interest in local soccer.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by justinr73 »

WestDr wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 1:35 pm
Dublin4 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:54 am I appreciate that it is difficult for fans of the other provincial teams to endure our dominance and I would like more competition too. But it was superb rugby yesterday from both sides. Our speed of pass and recycling is something to behold.
d4, if 13 from 15 are full and regular starting internationals against the top teams (NZ/Fr/Eng/SA/Aus), not bench-warmers for the likes of the USA and Italy, then it's unsurprising, given the standard required at that level, that Leinster are dominant. That this preference by the IRFU to concentrate/allow the concentration of the vast majority of the current talent at one province will be only endurable provided the outcome is success for Ireland at tournaments such as the RWC 2023.

If this is not the case, and there is yet another failure to deliver at least a SF place, then the fact that Leinster are (a) subsidised by ?12? or more central contracts for their starting 15 and (b) are to a large extent protected by the IRFU's ability to control who plays for the Ireland team (i.e. go abroad and it's highly likely you're not in green), thus reducing the loss of players to France/England for more money, will be increasingly less accepted. I would expect much greater pressure for private ownership of the provinces too. The situation where, it increasingly appears, that Leinster supporters only turn out for the big games (increasingly so Munster supporters too), would mean that a fall-off in success at this level would mean that even the RDS is too big for Leinster support.

The other two external risks to Leinster's continued success would seem to me to be:
  • That the French & English sides get tired/sick of always losing to Leinster in the HC and decide to down-rate their involvement in the HC. You can add more stars to your jersey as you wish, but it'll be seen as a second-rate competition. I doubt there would be any appetite to allow Leinster into a British Isles competition (too small a TV market, too good a team and the Premiership is owned by the clubs, not the RFU - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.)
  • That the URC improves - not at the top 8 level, but at the bottom 8. So those matches v Benetton, Dragons or away in SA where Leinster can play the reserves because they're easily winnable, will disappear, and Leinster have to play their top guys far more frequently to secure the home QFs etc.
So, it's well-worth enjoying whilst you can. It's well-deserved and a testament to the choices made by the IRFU and the players. Let's hope they achieve the end goal too. Perhaps then Ireland might also get a World Cup too ? But that would very likely require a Government of Ireland financial guarantee.
I’m not suggesting that the end is nigh necessarily but whether it’s due to the reduced number of games or COVID cost-cutting, it’s noticeable that Leinster are losing a fair amount of experience from their depth chart this summer.

They may well need to crank that conveyor belt up for next season.

Byrne, Dooley, Murphy and Hawkshaw are obviously off to Connacht, plus Dunne and O’Loughlin to Exeter.

Cronin, Leavy and Toner have hung up their boots.

Add to that, Kearney and Connors have played about two games between them this season due to repeated injury, Tommy O’Brien (who was looking good) has just snapped his ACL and H Byrne, Larmour and Baird have all had seasons to forget and they look a bit short at 9.

Interesting times ahead.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by WestDr »

Thank you Cormac and D4 for the thoughtful posts (Dave, you're absolutely right - neither were from you. My apologies).

Picking up a couple of the main points made:
1. It's hard to class a €2m subsidy to the wage bill of a club as 'a red herring'. It allows that team to retain the services of 6 players who might not necessarily play for that team without that money. It goes without saying that, from this perspective, the €1m+ that goes for the Munster 4 is indeed, an even bigger, and probably more welcome subsidy enabling Munster to retain the services of those players. Whether this is good value for either Ireland or, perhaps, even Munster is indeed open to question.The same can equally be said of the Ulster 2, although in the light of Stockdale's injury, no doubt very welcome to the UR FD.

In the event that there was no funding for these players via central contacts, then Leinster Rugby would have to find the €2m from their own resources, be that higher ticket prices, increased sponsorship, more hospitality/other revenue or external sources of revenue. IF that is not feasible, then to reduce either the number of players or, to keep the same number of players, their salaries.

I have no doubt that this is not the primary purpose of central contracts, which is to keep the players in Ireland to the benefit of the national team, but it is undeniable that given that Leinster have the largest amount of both players and funding, then the outcome is they benefit more from it than other provinces. Futhermore, what is clear from this season's URC results, is that when these centrally-contracted players do not play, Leinster are far less successful (e.g. losing twice to Ulster and three other defeats to date). Those players, funded by central contracts, do clearly make a difference.

Without this €2m, there is no reason to suppose that elite Irish rugby players at Leinster would be any different to elite Irish golfers, Irish footballers, Irish business people or Irish media stars, and go where the exposure and rewards are greater, be it London or the US. There is a limit to the glory and riches of a 6.5m population pond when compared to that of Hollywood, Silicon Valley, the US PGA Tour or the Premier League. The same can be said of the 1.6m in Ulster too....

At present, for the elite Irish rugby player, the pond as currently structured is big enough and rewarding enough to remain in Ireland, and playing for your province. Whilst some of this is due to the green shirt, some of it is also due to two other factors; (i) that the salary cap in England is £5m + £400k, thus reducing both the demand for Irish players and the potential supply to meet that demand, and (ii) that there is an alternative source of proven World Cup-winning talent that is cheaper than Irish talent, South Africa. If you're a French club, why spend €500k on 1 Irish player when you can probably get 2 or even 3 SA players for that ? Add to that the JJF programme, then there may well be even less attraction in having expensive Irish players. This combination makes the IRFU central contract framework operate as it does. Having most players on it, Leinster benefit the most from it.

2. The English/French clubs will continue to play the Irish provinces and that this will not diminish. Whilst in geology, the past is the key to the present, I'd not be so confident that in rugby the present is the key to the future. The current 4 year French TV deal for the Top 14 is worth €454m (€113m p.a.) is significantly larger than both the URC and HC rights amounts. It will be obvious where the interests of the French clubs lie - and which piper will be calling the tune. The French club's interest in playing the Irish provinces will be identical to that of Leinster's playing the Sharks and Stormers the other week - a good chance to develop the next generation against decent opposition. You might win it, but it won't make a great deal of difference to the overall finances of anyone but the team winning it. And it takes 7 or 8 matches to do so, on top of 26 or so in the Top 14. You'll also save your big international stars for the matches where the main funders and main advertisers want to see them. IMHO Toulouse are the exception that proves the rule wrt to French rugby clubs in this regard.

The English view will be similar, but from the poverty angle. The current deal with BT Sport is for £110m over 3 years to 2024. You'll get a great deal of push to put your stars in the League rather than the HC, especially if a salary cap of £5m means you have far fewer of them than the French clubs.

There is no doubt that the HC has been great for Irish provincial rugby. The fact that the winnings go to the IRFU, and are not retained by the provinces (I think that's correct) has provided all the provinces with a benefit from, firstly, Munster and then Leinster's success. Ireland loves it because it gets Ireland onto a bigger stage. Remove the other actors, or only see the stand-ins/rising stars, then there's a limit to the value of the play to all participants.

3. The 3 talent challenges for any organisation are (a) find/creating it, (b) organising it to succeed and (c) retaining it. D4 clearly maintains that in his view Leinster's success at (b) demonstrates that they're doing (a) very well. As Justin73 observes, if you can't do (c) and (a) at the same time, then (b) becomes much much harder.

In a way, Leinster's current success is actually creating a challenge in that those elite players who have to remain on provincial contracts (Lowe, Keenan etc), are likely to be wanting more money as they play more international minutes. And can Leinster afford to pay that sort of cash from their own resources if these players don't get central contracts ? If it's the 'same sized pot, spread amongst less players' then we will see (a) the playing hours per player rise if the levels of success are to be sustained and (b) fewer and/or cheaper players at the lower end. The latter certainly seems to be happening. Challenges, challenges. Enjoy that 5th star..... but let's hope for the sake of all the provinces that the subsidy delivers success at the international level. Otherwise, as my partner puts it "why should I pay to go and watch Leinster in green when I see them twice a year in the League ?"
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dublin4 »

That's a comprehensive post, WestDr. Much I agree with. I certainly don't want to see players from one province dominate the national XV. Any number beyond 7 or 8 is not healthy but can you blame Farrell for picking more Leinster at the moment? I look forward to this changing as I see enough of Leinster anyway.
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