Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

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rumncoke
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by rumncoke »

A professional rugby team is not a random selection of players similar to a school firsts selections tend to be towards the creation of units

Front row -- second row -- back row -- half backs -- centres --and back 3

Thus if two front rows are from one province it is easier for the 3rd to be selected ( often the bench )

Second row units are less depended on a provincial bias -- but again the bias maybe towards the place on the bench

Back row selection is like that of the front row

Half backs frequently follow a provincial pattern ( Boss had to move from ulster to Leinster to achieve a regular selection )

Centre pairings frequently follow a provincial pattern which is often disrupted by injury and to some extent the nature of the opposition

selection frequently is based on the strongest defensive combination rather than attacking

The Back 3 is the one combination where combination is actually least important but again selection may not reflect the best attacking options but may reflect the the expected game plan of the opposition .



eg Lowe may not be the best attacking wing in Ireland but he can kick distance a basic requirement possibly missing in others selected

Thus in my view it is harder to break into an international selection not just because of an individual player may be better in that position but because that player is an existing part of a successful combination with experience of playing together .

Similarly there is an element of existing team spirit players being used to each others company -- which can make it harder for some players to be accepted into the group than it would be for others and the more players come for fewer provinces the greater this problem may become.

Thus in my opinion training squads should be more mixed than currently even if some are just bag carriers .
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by volvo »

Mexicans pipped at the post La Rochelle Champions
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Cap'n Grumpy
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

For sale - Job lot of Leinster Rugby Jerseys 2022-23.

Slight design flaw - extra star added inadvertently. Genuine error.

No reasonable offer refused.
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Bobbievee
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Bobbievee »

Cap'n Grumpy wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:14 pm For sale - Job lot of Leinster Rugby Jerseys 2022-23.

Slight design flaw - extra star added inadvertently. Genuine error.

No reasonable offer refused.
Fantastic contest.
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and Wayne Barnes earned his corn today!!
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Dublin4
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Dublin4 »

The best team won and won well.
That's four seasons Leinster have been undone by physical opposition. Sarries, Exe. La Rochelle and again La Rochelle.
We need a new Brad Thorne or else sign Skelton.
The URC is not fit for purpose and I say that even if Leinster hammer their opponents over the next 3 weekends.
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solidarity
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by solidarity »

Dublin4 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:40 pm The URC is not fit for purpose and I say that even if Leinster hammer their opponents over the next 3 weekends.
I agree but what can be done about it?
If the Welsh, Scots and Italians don't get their acts together, we may as well start lobbying for an Anglo-Irish league.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by TopPoster »

Doubt the Ingerlish would want that as they’d never win it 😂
rumncoke
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by rumncoke »

The statement the English would never win it is an assumption based on the the assumption the English would retain the same number of teams at present -- reduce the number of teams concentrate the talent --and I don't think it would hold true.

The fact is in Irish rugby the number of teams is ideal for the amount of talent creating three reasonablely competitive sides and one not off the radar.

Leinster got beaten by a side based on Munster rugby assisted by a physical backline and to be honest Leinster nearly won the game for a neutral who cared a smile on the face of either coach was never going to be pleasing.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

solidarity wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 12:22 am
Dublin4 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:40 pm The URC is not fit for purpose and I say that even if Leinster hammer their opponents over the next 3 weekends.
I agree but what can be done about it?
If the Welsh, Scots and Italians don't get their acts together, we may as well start lobbying for an Anglo-Irish league.
Was that not ruled out years ago as part of the Anglo-Irish a-league-ment?
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WestDr
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by WestDr »

Dublin4 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:40 pm The best team won and won well.
That's four seasons Leinster have been undone by physical opposition. Sarries, Exe. La Rochelle and again La Rochelle.
We need a new Brad Thorne or else sign Skelton.
The URC is not fit for purpose and I say that even if Leinster hammer their opponents over the next 3 weekends.
Poor old Zebre and Dragons, being blamed again for Leinster's failures to beat Sarries, Exeter, La Rochelle x 2 and Hubris. It can't win - either the URC allows Leinster's international players to only have 1,000 playing minutes per season so can be fresher, when compared to Toulouse (or La Rochelle) player's upwards of 2,000+ minutes (stats from Irish Times), or it's like the 3 Bears porridge and doesn't provide just the right sort of playing opportunities. It seems a stretch that the URC can be blamed for the fact that 13 Irish starting internationals (including pretty much 9-15 of the Ireland team) didn't really look like they were ever going to score a try against a team who put 3 past them.

What does seem fairly evident is that the tactics used by both Leinster and Leinster in Green are combatable - you need both a coaching and playing outfit to see it and then, more importantly, to be able to execute it. Toulouse tried, but La Rochelle succeeded. As did France in the 6N. You could equally make the case that the 6N isn't really up to it either......

Two suggestions:
1. If Leinster supporters really really do want an improved URC, then they should start with demanding the IRFU do what the IRFU can control - and that's either funding all four provinces to the same level or stepping out of the way and letting someone else do it. As an aside, I find it bizarre to think that a club-owned league like the English one will ever let in an external side - turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
2. Listen to Leo Cullen and Stuart Lancaster. I've neither heard nor read either of them complaining about the URC. They're far more focussed on how, with all the advantage they had (less games, more internationals etc etc) they failed to win that match. I have little doubt Andy Farrell and Mike Catt will be having a lengthy conversation with Cullen and Lancaster since if the Blue game-plan can be beaten, so can the Green one. I'd say the stakes around this tour of NZ have just got a lot higher - even NZ can watch videos. As for the matches themselves, I doubt the two v NZ Maoris will be pretty watching at all..... in fact, they'll be fierce, terrifying and brutal (and not in the Irish sense of the word).

As for the match itself, surprised how Barnes let ?10+? Leinster penalty offences within 5 yards of their own line in the last 10 minutes go without a yellow card. But then, he was at least consistent...... As you rightly said, the best team won and won well. Even if it was in the last minute or so.
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solidarity
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by solidarity »

All very fair comment, Westy. For me, a key issue for Leinster (and the rest of us who aspire to greater things) is, are they getting enough regular really hard matches, losing enough to know that a defeat is not an anomaly? To go into almost every match with the assumption that a win is pretty much the norm can't be good.
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by justinr73 »

They actually lost more than the Stormers and only one fewer than us and the Sharks.
rumncoke
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by rumncoke »

LaR Had watched leinster play Toulouse and realised that to beat Leinster they had to contain the leinster back row and harass Sexton.

The latter was a guaranteed part of the game Plan there being little love lost between Sexton and O Gara .

The first was achieved by packing the mid field area with heavies thus ensuring that Leinster employed at least 2 players to tackle each ball carrier thus the Leinster back row were denied the opportunity to hinder the recycle or compete for a turnover . This sucked the Leinster wings infield and provided LaR with space wide.

The other factor was the temperature on the day and a few weird decisions such as Leinster's failure to go for the 5 metre line out at the first Penalty and subsequent penalties -- which must have been a tactical decision to conserve energy . -- a decision which came back to bite them .
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WestDr
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by WestDr »

Solids, fully appreciate what you say - even if we do have the good fortune to watch a team that wins more frequently than it loses.

It's important (IMO) to note that winning more games than you lose is a feature of league winning teams rather than a bug. After all, that's what separates top from bottom, whether it's the 70 point gap between Manchester City and Norwich City, 60+ between Leicester and Worcester, 50 between Montpellier and Biarritz etc etc. It's also fair to say that as a supporter at the beginning of each season you've got a pretty good idea of who is going to finish where - and which games you are going to win where (I do this every season with my Saints season-ticket holder friend).

The two crucial differences between URC and the other 2 NH leagues (Top 14 and Premiership) is that (a) since Connacht and then Scarlets in 16-17, there is much less variety in who is the most successful team and (b) the winners don't seem to have to play their best players too often to be successful either.

How do the other two NH leagues solve that problem then ? Well, player turnover, driven mainly by money, whether budgets and caps, in the NH. In NZ, it appears that player turnover is also driven by the NZRU allocating players (I think that's correct). And sometimes/perhaps by rule changes e.g. on latching which seems to have paused Exeter's progress, or enforcement of them cf Sarries.

No reason whatsoever why Leinster's dominance cannot be curtailed by the same forces. The difficulty for the IRFU is that due to the limited size of the Irish advertising market (8m people compared to 56m in England and 65m in France) they can't afford to fund a decent Irish challenger to Leinster - or not without ceding control of the players to outside investors. That won't change unless the IRFU want it to. The same constraints drive Scottish, Welsh, Italian and, to an extent, SA rugby. The IRFU could take a more NZRFU approach to player movement, and it wouldn't be a surprise if some of this season's moves away from Leinster are being pushed behind the scenes by the IRFU with this in mind. However, in my heart of hearts, I think the current situation suits the IRFU quite well at present. They definitely don't want to get into the same situation as the English FA now find themselves.

With no internal change from the IRFU, the main external events I could forsee to cause issues will be when the Aviva does not fill for the 6N and AIs, due to (a) continued Ireland failure at RWCs and (b) the RoI football team returning to tournament qualification. Then the event junkie money will go that way (cf Glasgow Warriors crowds now Rangers are back being successful). That will weaken the ability of Leinster to keep their best players and thus the league will revert to a more normal distribution of titles. If I had £184m I would offer Johnny Petrie what Colin Weir did with Partick Thistle.

Finally, I don't believe Leinster have been fully tested this year - they didn't play at altitude in SA against full Bulls and Lions teams. In the short term, I'd set the 22-23 fixtures so those two games are in, say, January when 'Boks are available and Leinster can't send the B/C team because the league is already sewn up......
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solidarity
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Re: Heineken Cup 2021/22 Other Sides

Post by solidarity »

'Finally, I don't believe Leinster have been fully tested this year '

That's the problem, isn't it? How do we ensure that they are fully tested every year?

I can't believe I'm saying this... I have a soft spot for the Americans' idea of an annual draft. I doubt that it would ever happen but it would certainly even things out. There are too many differences, not least provincial loyalty (which is a good thing) but surely it would strengthen the Irish team. The rest of us just have to get our acts together.
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