Ulster v Leinster Saturday March 12th 7:35pm KO Premier Sports 1 & TG4

[WestDr]

Well, sounds like it didn't rain at all on TV then..... those at the ground will know it was coming in sideways - even well up into the new Old Grandstand. And cold too.

In the first half we used the wind and rain reasonably well (some over-long box kicks notwithstanding) and put 18 points on Leinster. The latter's tactics were very simple - keep it in the tight 8 and Ross Byrne puts up contestable (well most of the time) kicks and they try and proft from our mistakes. Second half, Leinster play with the wind and rain and try much the same tactics as their first half ones. And score only 3 points. We kept Leinster scoreless for nearly 30 minutes into pouring rain and wind - and made it clear that Leinster had no operable Plan B. Not many teams will do that this season. I pity their poor no. 14 - only got the ball when we kicked it to him as nothing came beyond his 12 until the last 2 minutes. He was reduced to running broncos/shuttles to keep warm....

All Ulster players were great to dog it out for 80 and win - with a real bonus to having Cooney come on. Thought Moxham grasped being in the scrum pretty well after the first one . Ulster the only team to be sufficiently confident and adventurous to try putting it through the hands via Burns and we scored a lovely try as a result. Frank finally saw (a) the not-straight throw-ins from Leinster and (b) how they didn't even attempt to put any distance between the two lines of players at line-outs.

Last season, or even earlier this season (prior to the RDS & Clermont) we would have lost that game. But shurr, it's only Leinster's B team.....

[StandUp]

Burns is back in his shell. No control on this game at all.

Byrne had a decent game for them (in terms of kicking it up in the air) but given that Ulster play off 9 (if you hadn’t noticed), and the conditions were rancid, what were you expecting exactly?

Of course I had noticed. No need to be an arsehole.
A top flight 10 will constantly be scanning the opposition to add another possibility to the attack and will call to the 9 for the ball to exploit that space.
As you say, the conditions were horrible so that gives another dimension to the attack to exploit, but Burns didn’t do any of that. He stood back and let Doak do all the work.
Would Sexton, Farrell or Barrett have played like that?? Of course not. They would have realised the potential in those conditions. Burns stood back and sucked his thumb.

[justinr73]

Why stop at Sexton, Farrell and Barrett?

What about Carter and Wilkinson?

Billy did his bit, not least putting in a big tackle to force a knock-on deep in our territory in the second half, if I’m not mistaken.

It was all hands to the pump tonight and to suggest otherwise is churlish.

[StandUp]

Some more than others.
The team as a whole ground out an impressive performance but Burns did not see any possibilities in the conditions. I suspect Paddy would have taken control of the team and not left everything to a 20 year old scrum half.

[BR]

Fairly typical old school interpro.

Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings.

I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.

[flatpass]

‘Fairly typical old school interpro. Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings. I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.’

You must be kidding! Where were you sitting/standing? In the second half the rain was like a blizzard with swirling wind, and very cold.

[WestDr]

Agree with both BR and Justin73 in that this match was very much played to orders. Reasonably sure the 2 Dans can read a weather forecast and watch videos of Leinster. I would contend that, even if it was the Sainted PJ in the 10 shirt, with Doak and Cooney at 9 the methodology would have been much the same. The sole difference was that Byrne (at 10) put up his kicks from a lot deeper than Doak/Cooney (at 9) and was content to test Lowry and Gilroy more than Ulster tested the Leinster 11, 14 & 15.

As for 'leaving it to a 20 year old'...... well, you can't have it both ways. Either this is part of Doak's learning/Doak's good enough or he's not - and if Nathan Doak isn't, this is how he gets better. What I did notice was that Doak was on for all of the half with the wind and only 9 minutes of into the wind. Cooney came on at 49 minutes, with (a) fresh legs and (b) more experience of playing these types of conditions - and it's worth recalling that both Cooney and Dan McF have extensive Connacht/Galway weather experience.

As Justin73 notes, with the personnel UR have/have chosen, UR play through 9 a lot more. If we had Dupont, I'd fully expect Ulster to be using him too, not moaning about the fact that Ntmack doesn't control the game enough. Amazingly when we had RP, no complaints that Junior Humph didn't control games enough. I would maintain that (a) Billy did control the match - as far as the conditions, Leinster and his team's own performance allowed and (b) the tactics often mean it looks like he isn't doing very much. It'll be fascinating to see how Toulouse use their 9 & 10 when they play Ulster.

Finally, heresy of heresies, I'd say Carter earned his money last night - deliberately on for only a portion of the match, and instrumental in delivering effective line-outs. That match was won through (a) a really good team effort - from all 23 (Mads included) and (b) each one of those doing what they were paid and instructed/agreed to do. Nick Timoney, Marcus Rea and Vermuelen again also excellent. Hope DV is ok and enjoys his time in SA.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Fairly typical old school interpro.

Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings.

That was my impression too - that they were at least playing to a game plan in both halves. Tactics certainly changed at half time, when from playing with a strong wind and increasing rain, to playing into an increasingly stronger wind with driving rain. That being the case, it's the coaching team who merit any criticism that's going. Given that we won, they may say they got the tactics right, but that's the beauty of sport - we will never know what might have been if we'd played it differently.

I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.

I assume you were watching on the telebox thingymabob?

Yes, we have all seen much worse at Ravenhill, but to say that last night's weather would have been described as 'pretty typical' 10 years ago stretches the imagination too far.

Yes Dragons was horrendous, and no, last night wasn't as bad as Dave Parade, at least not for the full 80 minutes, but they were getting close later in the second half. IMO last night's conditions were far from typical BR. The question I was asking myself was "have we got a big enough lead at half-time to defend in the second half?" We now know the answer.

You and I have been around a long time and you know how long we both endured the terrace before the new stand was built, but I respectfully disagree with your assessment about last night.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Agree with both BR and Justin73 in that this match was very much played to orders. Reasonably sure the 2 Dans can read a weather forecast and watch videos of Leinster. I would contend that, even if it was the Sainted PJ in the 10 shirt, with Doak and Cooney at 9 the methodology would have been much the same. The sole difference was that Byrne (at 10) put up his kicks from a lot deeper than Doak/Cooney (at 9) and was content to test Lowry and Gilroy more than Ulster tested the Leinster 11, 14 & 15.

As for 'leaving it to a 20 year old'...... well, you can't have it both ways. Either this is part of Doak's learning/Doak's good enough or he's not - and if Nathan Doak isn't, this is how he gets better. What I did notice was that Doak was on for all of the half with the wind and only 9 minutes of into the wind. Cooney came on at 49 minutes, with (a) fresh legs and (b) more experience of playing these types of conditions - and it's worth recalling that both Cooney and Dan McF have extensive Connacht/Galway weather experience.

As Justin73 notes, with the personnel UR have/have chosen, UR play through 9 a lot more. If we had Dupont, I'd fully expect Ulster to be using him too, not moaning about the fact that Ntmack doesn't control the game enough. Amazingly when we had RP, no complaints that Junior Humph didn't control games enough. I would maintain that (a) Billy did control the match - as far as the conditions, Leinster and his team's own performance allowed and (b) the tactics often mean it looks like he isn't doing very much. It'll be fascinating to see how Toulouse use their 9 & 10 when they play Ulster.

Finally, heresy of heresies, I'd say Carter earned his money last night - deliberately on for only a portion of the match, and instrumental in delivering effective line-outs. That match was won through (a) a really good team effort - from all 23 (Mads included) and (b) each one of those doing what they were paid and instructed/agreed to do. Nick Timoney, Marcus Rea and Vermuelen again also excellent. Hope DV is ok and enjoys his time in SA.

I'd go along with that . . .

. . . but would just add that I hope DV doesn't enjoy his time so much to become homesick.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

‘Fairly typical old school interpro. Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings. I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.’

You must be kidding! Where were you sitting/standing? In the second half the rain was like a blizzard with swirling wind, and very cold.

Me thinks BR was sitting indoors, in which case it is hard to take in what the conditions were like, but hey, he's entitled to his opinion . . .


. . . even if it is wrong.


(I got yer back there BR ).

[big mervyn]

‘Fairly typical old school interpro. Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings. I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.’

You must be kidding! Where were you sitting/standing? In the second half the rain was like a blizzard with swirling wind, and very cold.

Me thinks BR was sitting indoors, in which case it is hard to take in what the conditions were like, but hey, he's entitled to his opinion . . .


. . . even if it is wrong.


(I got yer back there BR ).

I was on the Terrace and am inclined to lean towards BR's view. Aye it was a wee bit dreich and the pitch certainly looked a bit heavy but the wind wasn't the worst and I think the weather has been exaggerated a tad. Certainly nohingt like some of the nights I can recall.

[BR]

‘Fairly typical old school interpro. Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings. I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.’

You must be kidding! Where were you sitting/standing? In the second half the rain was like a blizzard with swirling wind, and very cold.

Terrace - Aquinas 22. Where were you? Spitsbergen??

[big mervyn]

‘Fairly typical old school interpro. Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings. I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.’

You must be kidding! Where were you sitting/standing? In the second half the rain was like a blizzard with swirling wind, and very cold.

Terrace - Aquinas 22. Where were you? Spitsbergen??

There was a lot of spit but not much more

[solidarity]

A question for those of you who know more about these things than I do.

At the free kick in the last few minutes, why go for the up and under? I know a kick to touch woukd give possession away but would a wee tap and go to keep possession not have been a better option? Or are you not allowed to do that from a free kick?

I thought Frank Murphy did well with the whistle, except for the high tackle in a very kickable position with about ten minutes to go and, tbh the 'closing the gap' decision in our favour that led to that free kick I was talking about.

[BR]

‘Fairly typical old school interpro. Allegedly conditions didnt allow for much else, but i got the. Impression the players were playing to orders (which were clearly to kick the ball away). Would have been interesred to see what would have happened if the ball had reached the wings. I read about 'horrendous' conditions. Must be global warming, or something, but 10 years ago, i think those conditions would have been described as 'pretty typical'. Dragons was horrendous, but weve al seen much worse than last night at ravenhill.’

You must be kidding! Where were you sitting/standing? In the second half the rain was like a blizzard with swirling wind, and very cold.

Me thinks BR was sitting indoors, in which case it is hard to take in what the conditions were like, but hey, he's entitled to his opinion . . .


. . . even if it is wrong.


(I got yer back there BR ).

I was on the Terrace and am inclined to lean towards BR's view. Aye it was a wee bit dreich and the pitch certainly looked a bit heavy but the wind wasn't the worst and I think the weather has been exaggerated a tad. Certainly nohingt like some of the nights I can recall.

Interesting.

I wonder is ones perception altered by comparison to 'normal' conditions. We are all fairly used to a SW coming in from the Aquinas/Terrace corner. Change that wind direction and the perception of what is horrendous and what is not changes too.

Cap'n I appreciate your support, as always. And perhaps my memory is skewed by PTSD. I'm sure I only have to say the word - Llanelli - for you to instantly forget all those matches we stood on the terrace in shorts/taps-aff.