Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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StandUp
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by StandUp »

Ulster had plenty of motivation to beat Toulouse at home and play a euro qf but they choked.
Ulster had plenty of motivation to beat Munster and look for a home qf but they choked.
I think I’ve been fooling myself for years that Ulster are title contenders.
I will still turn up to matches, roar until my throat is sore, and keep my fingers crossed, but I have reset my expectations. That’s a pretty devastating feeling but absolutely nothing compared to what Pedrie and his family have suffered.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by tighthead3 »

StandUp wrote:
UlsterNo9 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:02 pm We're light years away from regularly competing for league and european titles, I'm unsure where the average Ulster rugby fan forms the opinion that we should be. We need to have a grassroots blueprint for producing our own forwards. Not relying on buying in NIQs at the end of World Cup cycles, nor finding someone on the other side of the world with an Irish granny or taking the left overs other provinces don't take into their academy (however much I love the adoption and buy in those lads make to become Ulstermen).

Leinster have had consistantly 8-10 forwards in an Irish matchday squad and they've won one European title in the past decade, we've had 1-2 in a matchday international squad.

If we go back to amateur era a current Ulster produced pack would look something like

1 Warwick 2 Andrew 3 O'Kane 4 A.N. Other 5 Henderson 6 Rea Snr 7 Rea Jnr 8 McCann
16 Stewart 17 Reid 18 Carey? 19 A.N. Other 20. A.N. Other

There's something fundamentally wrong at grass roots level which has never been addressed. I don't accept that we're not capable, we were the most success province during the 80s and 90s.

Producing our own is the only way to win titles, then add 3 quality NIQs to that and pick a few IQs up along the way.
Excellent post 9er. Will take a long time to get there but that’s the ideal scenario.
Your ideal scenario has Matty Rea and Ross Kane starting? I'm sorry, but unless you want to win the towns cup that's a joke.

Face facts, we have 4 good forwards on a good day, and none of them are a tighthead lock. We haven't produced an 8 since Roger. We've killer backs and some skills upfront but we need a serious injection of bulk to compete - same ould story for the last decade.

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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by StandUp »

I think you misunderstood what was being said. Try reading it again.🙄
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by tighthead3 »

I have read it again and fair enough I took you and the OP wrong. Apologies, my backs still up after last night and an utter capitulation from our pack.

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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by StandUp »

Yep, me too.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Dave »

I actually think we are producing a lot of talent, considering. Outside of Ireland our production line would be the envy of any club. Our backline stocked fully of academy talent almost beat the best club side in Europe. I don't think it's feasible for us to produce a pack of forwards. We have to be able to recruit well. Freaks like Hendy and 1F come along once a generation. We just don't genetically see enough guys physically big enough and athletic enough. It's almost as unrealistic to think we can home grow a pack as expect the current squad to win a trophy. Places like SA genetically have big huge men. Genetics from the Island areas in the South Pacific feed many nations.

The obvious comparison is with Leinster. Again completely unfeasible to expect the same product development. The provincial model reinforces the wealth distribution throughout the island of Ireland. There is no way to redistribute these resources available. It's impossible to replicate what Leinster can do. They have 10ish highly resourced schools with expert coaching and strength/conditioning programmes. Ulster have several counties where next to no rugby is played at school age.

We are at a juncture where he have a excellent backline and a pack that is solid but lacks that cutting edge. Recruitment is as important as ever. Obviously the same funds are not as available so it has to be smart recruitment.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by UlsterNo9 »

We're producing as many home grown forwards as Connacht and much less than Munster who have a comparable youth pool.

Ulster have several counties where next to no rugby is played at school age, and what are we doing about it? I'd rather pump an additional £1mil into grassroots for the next few years than a couple of NIQs. Munster incidentally are now pulling rugby professionals from West Cork which would have been unheard of years ago.

Wycherley brothers, Coombes and Hodnett all from non traditional Munster playing areas. All prime meat forwards. A chance to play sport professionally and represent your country, has to appeal.
https://www.southernstar.ie/sport/long- ... rk-4220223

You have to produce your own on top of bringing in.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by StandUp »

UlsterNo9 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:03 am We're producing as many home grown forwards as Connacht and much less than Munster who have a comparable youth pool.

Ulster have several counties where next to no rugby is played at school age, and what are we doing about it? I'd rather pump an additional £1mil into grassroots for the next few years than a couple of NIQs. Munster incidentally are now pulling rugby professionals from West Cork which would have been unheard of years ago.

Wycherley brothers, Coombes and Hodnett all from non traditional Munster playing areas. All prime meat forwards. A chance to play sport professionally and represent your country, has to appeal.
https://www.southernstar.ie/sport/long- ... rk-4220223

You have to produce your own on top of bringing in.
A very interesting article. Problem is, if UR begin a similar expansion, it’ll take years for players to filter through to the senior team. So that needs funding as well as the NIQ’s to plug the gap in the meantime.
If supporters get fed up with the same capitulation year on year and decide not to attend matches, we could potentially end up in a scenario where we can’t fund both.
A vicious circle.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Dave »

UlsterNo9 wrote:We're producing as many home grown forwards as Connacht and much less than Munster who have a comparable youth pool.

Ulster have several counties where next to no rugby is played at school age, and what are we doing about it? I'd rather pump an additional £1mil into grassroots for the next few years than a couple of NIQs. Munster incidentally are now pulling rugby professionals from West Cork which would have been unheard of years ago.

Wycherley brothers, Coombes and Hodnett all from non traditional Munster playing areas. All prime meat forwards. A chance to play sport professionally and represent your country, has to appeal.
https://www.southernstar.ie/sport/long- ... rk-4220223

You have to produce your own on top of bringing in.
Firstly 9er, I totally agree, producing our own is the best scenario. Secondly, I don't know what I'm talking about (on most things but especially this). I do believe, though, we are producing our own though. Munster and Connacht would kill for the backline we have produced. To divert NIQ money into grassroots maybe the solution for 10 years time but not likely for the immediate term? This current backline could be generational. I, personally, would love to see our current squad boosted with a few better NIQ forwards.

Who says no to this pack?
Kitshoff Herring Moore
Hendy De Jager
Rea Vermeulen Timoney

Yes I know the names are far fetched so perhaps some more realistic targets could be inserted.

Jerry Flannery on podcast a while back explained how some of the non traditional rugby schools achieved this in Munster. The schools themselves invested, because they had the money and the desire, in top level coaching from SA. You're talking 6 figure salaries. That brings the elite mentality: s and c coaching, diet, training, rugby skills etc. That is all resource heavy. I would love to see schools doing that here but the financial backing isn't there. Throwing money at it may not work as the local community and schools have to want it. The school system is very different down south.

The counties with little interest in Ulster have the least resources. Socio-economically they are most deprived and have the worst access to public transport. A kid from Donegal/Cavan etc would have to travel. Turning these areas into thriving rugby communities would take a long long time and may never happen. They would have to want it. How many from these areas have ever been to an Ulster game or know it exists. The answer is I don't know but I can't see an elite level forward coming from counties like tyrone, derry, fermanagh etc.

An aside, I remember a world class rugby player wanting to retire here and coach the youth. The FIRFU kindly told him to do one. Them bastids don't make it easy.

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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Cap'n Grumpy »

UlsterNo9 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:02 pm We're light years away from regularly competing for league and european titles, I'm unsure where the average Ulster rugby fan forms the opinion that we should be. We need to have a grassroots blueprint for producing our own forwards. Not relying on buying in NIQs at the end of World Cup cycles, nor finding someone on the other side of the world with an Irish granny or taking the left overs other provinces don't take into their academy (however much I love the adoption and buy in those lads make to become Ulstermen).

Leinster have had consistantly 8-10 forwards in an Irish matchday squad and they've won one European title in the past decade, we've had 1-2 in a matchday international squad.

If we go back to amateur era a current Ulster produced pack would look something like

1 Warwick 2 Andrew 3 O'Kane 4 A.N. Other 5 Henderson 6 Rea Snr 7 Rea Jnr 8 McCann
16 Stewart 17 Reid 18 Carey? 19 A.N. Other 20. A.N. Other

There's something fundamentally wrong at grass roots level which has never been addressed. I don't accept that we're not capable, we were the most success province during the 80s and 90s.

Producing our own is the only way to win titles, then add 3 quality NIQs to that and pick a few IQs up along the way.
If we were still/back in an amateur era, it's doubtful if we would even have that pack, as I'm sure some of those wouldn't even have followed a rugby career.

By the same token, Leinster would be much worse off as there's no doubt that a lot of kids attend the big rugby schools nowadays in the hope of a rugbt career, but if it was still an amateur game, those schools wouldn't pick up a fraction of the players they have as there would be no financial carrot to attract them. A lot would have gone to "normal" schools in order to maximise their career prospects in anything but rugby.

It's all immaterial, it is what it is, and we have to live with it. We can speculate all we like about whether any team would have produced enough for home-grown teams if we were still amateur, but no one can prove anything. It's a moot argument.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Big-al »

A huge problem is being forgotten about. Ulster have probably lost out on 2 home QF sell outs in the last 2 losses. A lot of money being lost through appalling performances.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by UlsterNo9 »

A lot of speculation and generalisations to draw your argument to a conclusion that it is a moot point Cap'n. I say (adding to your generalisations) all of them would be playing rugby as their was feck all else to do on a Saturday in the 80s and 90s in comparison to the alternatives they have today.

What did occur to me, on a tangent, if you look at that pack you've got 4 x Ballymena Academy, 2 x BRA, 2 x Methody 2x RBAI 3 x A.N Other - All players coming from traditional rugby playing schools - we've done nothing to diversify from what we were doing in the amateur era, therefore are we now a professional organisation behaving like amateurs? 4 schools account for all of the current homegrown forwards.

Dave, I agree with a lot of what you have to say also, great points and counters, I don't know whether my going backwards to go forwards (pun intended) approach is any better, we've gone down the route of Afoa, Muller and Pienaar which did give us some success, I just don't know if we are in a better of place now for it. Tadhg Furlong arguably the best tight head in the world didn't go to a traditional rugby playing school in Dublin, Sean O'Brien the same and there are others.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by big mervyn »

We also lose a lot of the more academically inclined these days. Gone are the days when the side was made up of solicitors and doctors. Would Jackie Kyle or Mike Gibson be playing professional rugby these days?

Most of the current lads are content with a oart time business degree from the Poly to support their fledgling sassidge and/or coffee emporiums.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Dharper »

As I said chaps: I’d imagine there will be a lot of int retirees come end of WC - hopefully this will keep mkt price low. I’d say end of next season will be a natural squad reshuffle. I actually think a major issue with be Irfu allowing signing: LH & 2nd row are a concern similar to ire - ironically the development of those players in Munster & Leinster may just give us some leeway.

As an aside the addition of SA sides in league, altitude, power, kicking game, weather…is very interesting and should help develop our young player all round standards great opportunities for them. Great addition to the league “product”.

Watched Leinster stormers last night: clearly the stormers pack mullered Leinster physically. What I noticed was despite that, you could see the coaching in how they worked in units, our support of the ball carrier was dreadful Friday, nevermind an actual clear out for Cooney to have a clean ball.

Reidy defo deserves more gametime - gametime investment in players doesn’t mean carrying passengers.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Big-al »

UlsterNo9 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:05 pm A lot of speculation and generalisations to draw your argument to a conclusion that it is a moot point Cap'n. I say (adding to your generalisations) all of them would be playing rugby as their was feck all else to do on a Saturday in the 80s and 90s in comparison to the alternatives they have today.

What did occur to me, on a tangent, if you look at that pack you've got 4 x Ballymena Academy, 2 x BRA, 2 x Methody 2x RBAI 3 x A.N Other - All players coming from traditional rugby playing schools - we've done nothing to diversify from what we were doing in the amateur era, therefore are we now a professional organisation behaving like amateurs? 4 schools account for all of the current homegrown forwards.

Dave, I agree with a lot of what you have to say also, great points and counters, I don't know whether my going backwards to go forwards (pun intended) approach is any better, we've gone down the route of Afoa, Muller and Pienaar which did give us some success, I just don't know if we are in a better of place now for it. Tadhg Furlong arguably the best tight head in the world didn't go to a traditional rugby playing school in Dublin, Sean O'Brien the same and there are others.
Take St Michaels and blackrock players out of the Leinster squad and see how many are left!!!
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