Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Talk about the men in white, and everything Ulster!!

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Big-al
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Big-al »

kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:57 pm
Dave wrote:There is a major difference in the school system north and south.

NI the schools are publicly funded in the main but crucially a pupil can apply to any school they wish.

In ROI it goes by postcode. You can't apply to the public funded school out of your area. Thus in areas with good schools the house prices are astronomical. Therefore, folk don't want to be paying off a massive mortgage for their entire life just for schooling. Therefore they stay where they are taking the hit for 6/7 years and send the kids to private school. Thus the schools become more and more competitive. A big selling point is sport and facilities etc.

As King says, up here the average say u13 school coach is a teacher giving up his Saturday. Whereas in the big private school they are buying in top class coaching because they can. Training more frequently and have s & c sessions.

There are outlying freaks who develop without such resource. Furlong etc. Even Ferris was a javelin thrower or something before he was interested in rugby. Its difficult know when the next one will appear.

As King says, 2/3 world class NIQs along with the current squad would get us in the mix. Whether that's possible or not. I just don't know.
The worrying thing about the schools rugby here is it’s going to break very very soon and people can’t see it. Schools rugby is the purest of sports and I feel sorry for the next generation of kids who just aren’t going to benefit from it.

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It’s up to the ulster branch to ensure it can be maintained and enhanced.

That is literally their job.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Dublin4 »

there is a certain exaggeration of the differences between schools rugby in Ulster and Leinster.
There are no more than 8 private schools in Leinster who fall into the elite almost pro level. The other 100 and something schools play rugby for fun and without any expectation of senior cup glory. Of the top 8, two, Blackrock and St Michaels are exceptional. They are bulk suppliers to the pro Leinster team, and if they did not exist then half or more of the Leinster squad would not be there. But 90% plus of Leinster school kids playing are no where near this privileged elite. Most of them do not go to private schools.
Is this elitism a good thing or bad thing? I suppose it is good in terms of the quality of the current Ireland and Leinster sides but relying on one conveyor belt is dangerous in the long term.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by kingofthehill »

Big-al wrote:
kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:57 pm
Dave wrote:There is a major difference in the school system north and south.

NI the schools are publicly funded in the main but crucially a pupil can apply to any school they wish.

In ROI it goes by postcode. You can't apply to the public funded school out of your area. Thus in areas with good schools the house prices are astronomical. Therefore, folk don't want to be paying off a massive mortgage for their entire life just for schooling. Therefore they stay where they are taking the hit for 6/7 years and send the kids to private school. Thus the schools become more and more competitive. A big selling point is sport and facilities etc.

As King says, up here the average say u13 school coach is a teacher giving up his Saturday. Whereas in the big private school they are buying in top class coaching because they can. Training more frequently and have s & c sessions.

There are outlying freaks who develop without such resource. Furlong etc. Even Ferris was a javelin thrower or something before he was interested in rugby. Its difficult know when the next one will appear.

As King says, 2/3 world class NIQs along with the current squad would get us in the mix. Whether that's possible or not. I just don't know.
The worrying thing about the schools rugby here is it’s going to break very very soon and people can’t see it. Schools rugby is the purest of sports and I feel sorry for the next generation of kids who just aren’t going to benefit from it.

We are agreeing an awful lot these daysImage


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It’s up to the ulster branch to ensure it can be maintained and enhanced.

That is literally their job.
Is it the ulster branches job? Most schools don’t want YDO coming into the school.

Schools need more funding and physical education has become a second thought.


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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Bart S »

StandUp wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:17 pm I would love to see us get 2/3 world class NIQ’s but I still don’t think that would fix the mental fragility pervading the squad when the pressure really ratchets up. It has been an issue for years.
Do Ulster players have an inferiority complex?
Is it, as mentioned above, a lack of high quality coaching from a young age?
Every Leinster/Munster player seems to have that killer mentality and absolute desire to win every contact, collision, match and competition. And when the pressure is on, they seem to thrive.
Fight for every macchiato.🙄
I am sure many Munster fans would say they lack it also - semi finals and quarter finals and can't beat leinster when it matters. We have shown some mental resilience this season - battling back to win in clermont and keeping composure at the RDS but definitely an area where things can he improved. IMHO it was not what put ulster out of Europe, but played a part in both losses to munster, along with tactical naivety in the away game.
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Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by kingofthehill »

Dublin4 wrote:there is a certain exaggeration of the differences between schools rugby in Ulster and Leinster.
There are no more than 8 private schools in Leinster who fall into the elite almost pro level. The other 100 and something schools play rugby for fun and without any expectation of senior cup glory. Of the top 8, two, Blackrock and St Michaels are exceptional. They are bulk suppliers to the pro Leinster team, and if they did not exist then half or more of the Leinster squad would not be there. But 90% plus of Leinster school kids playing are no where near this privileged elite. Most of them do not go to private schools.
Is this elitism a good thing or bad thing? I suppose it is good in terms of the quality of the current Ireland and Leinster sides but relying on one conveyor belt is dangerous in the long term.
The funding these schools get is scary. Im aware of a DOR at one of these schools getting over 100k a year and he isn’t a teacher.

Blackrock
St Michaels
Clongowes
Tenenure
Belvedere
Gonzaga
St Mary’s
Castleknock
St Andrew’s
Newbridge
Cistercian

It won’t change down south, if anything it’s going to get stronger as more and more schools who wouldn’t of been traditionally in the Top 8 are getting money thrown at them to improve their rugby. It’s a concentrated area of Dublin as well so these schools don’t have to travel to get top notch competition on a weekly basis. Ulster is a laugh in comparison.


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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by UlsterNo9 »

Dublin4 wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:37 pm there is a certain exaggeration of the differences between schools rugby in Ulster and Leinster.
There are no more than 8 private schools in Leinster who fall into the elite almost pro level. The other 100 and something schools play rugby for fun and without any expectation of senior cup glory. Of the top 8, two, Blackrock and St Michaels are exceptional. They are bulk suppliers to the pro Leinster team, and if they did not exist then half or more of the Leinster squad would not be there. But 90% plus of Leinster school kids playing are no where near this privileged elite. Most of them do not go to private schools.
Is this elitism a good thing or bad thing? I suppose it is good in terms of the quality of the current Ireland and Leinster sides but relying on one conveyor belt is dangerous in the long term.
:thumleft: Thanks for that D4
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Dave »

Dublin4 wrote:there is a certain exaggeration of the differences between schools rugby in Ulster and Leinster.
There are no more than 8 private schools in Leinster who fall into the elite almost pro level. The other 100 and something schools play rugby for fun and without any expectation of senior cup glory. Of the top 8, two, Blackrock and St Michaels are exceptional. They are bulk suppliers to the pro Leinster team, and if they did not exist then half or more of the Leinster squad would not be there. But 90% plus of Leinster school kids playing are no where near this privileged elite. Most of them do not go to private schools.
Is this elitism a good thing or bad thing? I suppose it is good in terms of the quality of the current Ireland and Leinster sides but relying on one conveyor belt is dangerous in the long term.
I'm not sure you realise how bad it is up here. I had cousins going to Wesley. Not a school you've listed but vast difference in what I was doing and they were doing in terms of school rugby. I know for a fact the school I went to has not improved. U13, u14 coached by teachers with no interest in the sport.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Bart S »

Appreciate the schools situation may be getting depressingly bad but ulster have produced a number if backs recently who definitely look the part at least at provincial level and hopefully beyond. These have come through the school system. This has just not been happening in the pack for a long time.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Big-al »

kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:40 pm
Big-al wrote:
kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:57 pm
Dave wrote:There is a major difference in the school system north and south.

NI the schools are publicly funded in the main but crucially a pupil can apply to any school they wish.

In ROI it goes by postcode. You can't apply to the public funded school out of your area. Thus in areas with good schools the house prices are astronomical. Therefore, folk don't want to be paying off a massive mortgage for their entire life just for schooling. Therefore they stay where they are taking the hit for 6/7 years and send the kids to private school. Thus the schools become more and more competitive. A big selling point is sport and facilities etc.

As King says, up here the average say u13 school coach is a teacher giving up his Saturday. Whereas in the big private school they are buying in top class coaching because they can. Training more frequently and have s & c sessions.

There are outlying freaks who develop without such resource. Furlong etc. Even Ferris was a javelin thrower or something before he was interested in rugby. Its difficult know when the next one will appear.

As King says, 2/3 world class NIQs along with the current squad would get us in the mix. Whether that's possible or not. I just don't know.
The worrying thing about the schools rugby here is it’s going to break very very soon and people can’t see it. Schools rugby is the purest of sports and I feel sorry for the next generation of kids who just aren’t going to benefit from it.

We are agreeing an awful lot these daysImage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It’s up to the ulster branch to ensure it can be maintained and enhanced.

That is literally their job.
Is it the ulster branches job? Most schools don’t want YDO coming into the school.

Schools need more funding and physical education has become a second thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As well as offering coaching clinics to those schools who want it, They should also be offering a strong voice on behalf of schools who approach them looking assistance or advice & forwarding concerns to the relevant ministers.

Rugby clubs is probably the tool that could have the most potential in growing rugby at mini/youth level, going around primary schools trying to promote themselves and hopefully getting a few more young fellas (& girls) down a few nights after school.

Ulster rugby should be taking a Leaf out of Tyrone/Armagh/Derry GAA and how they get quality coaches involved. Nearly every big school has a former county player coaching them. Quality coaching makes a hell of a difference.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by kingofthehill »

Big-al wrote:
kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 7:40 pm
Big-al wrote:
kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:57 pm
Dave wrote:There is a major difference in the school system north and south.

NI the schools are publicly funded in the main but crucially a pupil can apply to any school they wish.

In ROI it goes by postcode. You can't apply to the public funded school out of your area. Thus in areas with good schools the house prices are astronomical. Therefore, folk don't want to be paying off a massive mortgage for their entire life just for schooling. Therefore they stay where they are taking the hit for 6/7 years and send the kids to private school. Thus the schools become more and more competitive. A big selling point is sport and facilities etc.

As King says, up here the average say u13 school coach is a teacher giving up his Saturday. Whereas in the big private school they are buying in top class coaching because they can. Training more frequently and have s & c sessions.

There are outlying freaks who develop without such resource. Furlong etc. Even Ferris was a javelin thrower or something before he was interested in rugby. Its difficult know when the next one will appear.

As King says, 2/3 world class NIQs along with the current squad would get us in the mix. Whether that's possible or not. I just don't know.
The worrying thing about the schools rugby here is it’s going to break very very soon and people can’t see it. Schools rugby is the purest of sports and I feel sorry for the next generation of kids who just aren’t going to benefit from it.

We are agreeing an awful lot these daysImage


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It’s up to the ulster branch to ensure it can be maintained and enhanced.

That is literally their job.
Is it the ulster branches job? Most schools don’t want YDO coming into the school.

Schools need more funding and physical education has become a second thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
As well as offering coaching clinics to those schools who want it, They should also be offering a strong voice on behalf of schools who approach them looking assistance or advice & forwarding concerns to the relevant ministers.

Rugby clubs is probably the tool that could have the most potential in growing rugby at mini/youth level, going around primary schools trying to promote themselves and hopefully getting a few more young fellas (& girls) down a few nights after school.

Ulster rugby should be taking a Leaf out of Tyrone/Armagh/Derry GAA and how they get quality coaches involved. Nearly every big school has a former county player coaching them. Quality coaching makes a hell of a difference.
Ulster should be throwing money at the clubs system.


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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by jean valjean »

Look at the hundreds of kids who play at ravenhill at half time and every sat morning. We've all seen some naturally talented kids with good hands and balanced running but how many of them will reach the narrow funnel of a few top schools? There is got to be a pathway for these kids and the club system has the biggest and widest net. If schools don't want to pay for coaching then UR needs to invest in quality training for club coaches.
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by WestDr »

kingofthehill wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:23 pm Ulster should be throwing money at the clubs system
jean valjean wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:37 pm Look at the hundreds of kids who play at ravenhill at half time and every sat morning. We've all seen some naturally talented kids with good hands and balanced running but how many of them will reach the narrow funnel of a few top schools? There is got to be a pathway for these kids and the club system has the biggest and widest net. If schools don't want to pay for coaching then UR needs to invest in quality training for club coaches.
Cannot not agree more with these two posts. This has to be the way to go in both the medium and long term. The clubs have the opportunity to build a long term relationship with both children and family, beginning with minis, that the schools do not. Yes, getting them in first off requires both the visit to the primary schools and a pipe-line into the club from those initial contacts... Clubs also have those things called enthusiasts and volunteers - something school sport is increasingly lacking and those schools who do want to go down the route of serious competitive sport are having to resort to salaried coaches to fill that gap. The vast majority of NI state schools, from whichever sector, believe that they have better things to spend their cash on than sport. It's resource intensive in both people and facilities. There is a need to break the 'Saturdays is school fixtures first' mind-set though..... and get the clubs running sides up beyond the u-12 level.

Developing the clubs does, of course, require that the issues of parental worry around injury be addressed - both through age appropriate play (which is now there with the various stages at which tackling, scrums etc are introduced) and the NZ idea of size-related matches. Whilst allegedly rugby is a game for all sizes, at 12/13/14 it really isn't, whereas hockey and hurling don't offer so much of a size premium at any age really (height helps, but not so much). From personal experience, being amongst the smallest in an u-14 match is no fun whatsover. The size-related game makes sense, but it does run the risk of losing kids who are not playing with their mates from the same (school) year group.....

It was really good to see that UR kept as much of the development stuff and staff during COVID as it did, but there's never enough for such a worth-while project. Oddly, where the GAA gains in having the funds to put into both physical and coaching facilities for ordinary clubs (which are frankly really impressive even in small places like Lifford) because it doesn't have the drain of money to pay players, it loses out later on because it doesn't offer the paid route for the better participants when they get older. Well, all bar the Australian Rules route for some of the footballers. Rugby has it the other way round.....

Furthermore the clubs are already there and representing the sport - you only have to see Virginia RFC, Letterkenny RFC, Enniskillen RFC, Clogher Valley RFC, City of Derry RFC kids at half-time on the Saturday matches at Ravenhill to know there is a presence across the province. That very interesting Southern Star article had a number of interesting points - the clubs were far more visible (in the article) than the schools. But even then, the schools were happy to link up with the clubs (e.g. Bantry). I'd also contend that the regular presence of the Irish u-20 matches in Cork doesn't harm at all in providing some exemplars to go and see.

One of the other real challenges for Ulster Rugby is that it's perceived as too-Belfast centric. Ok, 750k or so of the 2.1m people in the Province live within 30 minutes or so of Ravenhill, and that's reflected in where most of the players come from (the 4 B's of Bangor, Ballymena, Banbridge and Ballynachinch seem to be the furthest afield at present). I've seen Nathan Doak scooting round in his sponsored BMW 1-Series. I do hope that Robert Balacoune has one that takes him to Enniskillen with equal facility. Ideally, the AIL would fill the gap below - and that's where a lot of the fringe players are, however it doesn't seem to get the profile, even on the Ulster Rugby Show [why can't they fill their non-URC weeks with a round-up of what the clubs are doing ? Sure Tommy Bowe or Rory Best would be welcome in Coleraine or Letterkenny.....?]. UR need to get further than Portadown even with their pre-season stuff. Offer to go and play a match in Derry, Ballybofey or even Clones....!

And finally, given the success of Tyrone, Donegal and to a lesser extent Armagh, the talent pool of athletic youngsters is there. I'd suggest that the local pride in local success is there too - even my partner's farmer father, a stalwart of the Lodge and a UUP Council member, had the red and white fertiliser sacks on his telephone poles when Derry went to, and won, the All-Ireland in 1993. There is a team in red and white with a longer wait for a trophy than Ulster Rugby.... >jawdrop

Let the big 8 schools in NI do what they want - they will anyway. Commit to the clubs with money (coaches and YDO) and time (coaches and current player visits etc) and do it for the long term and it will pay enormous dividends. The big 8 schools will love UR too as what the clubs develop is also their target market too.... Oh yes, and it builds your spectator base too, although UR have to deliver here too. Which brings us neatly back on topic....
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by Dave »

I'm not reading all that.
I have my own tv channel, what have you got?
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by rumncoke »

I find the Half time rugby at Ravenhill to be a nightmare --- yes the kids enjoy it --a small dividend -- but none of the teams are structured they all play a form of give it to "FATTY ' and watch him run type rugby
Fatty -- is any child or pupil who is physically more mature than 60-70% of those on the field.

Passing is minimal and the development of the awareness of space to exploited,and how to exploit it none existent with a draft kick especially in the mini's.

It is basically a one or two pass game . the mindset being I have the ball and run with it till stopped

Very few if any basic skills are on show.

The kids enjoy it but -- don't claim it produces rugby players it doesn't
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Re: Ulster v Munster Friday April 22 7:35pm KO BBC2NI / RTE2 / Premier Sports 2 / URC TV / Super Sport

Post by rumncoke »

I find the Half time rugby at Ravenhill to be a nightmare --- yes the kids enjoy it --a small dividend -- but none of the teams are structured they all play a form of give it to "FATTY ' and watch him run type rugby
Fatty -- is any child or pupil who is physically more mature than 60-70% of those on the field.

Passing is minimal and the development of the awareness of space to exploited,and how to exploit it none existent with a draft kick especially in the mini's.

It is basically a one or two pass game . the mindset being I have the ball and run with it till stopped

Very few if any basic skills are on show.

The kids enjoy it but -- don't claim it produces rugby players it doesn't
Within this carapace of skepticism there lives an optimist
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