Scrums. What are they for?

[CIMANFOREVER]

Hmmmm.

Strikes me as a bit of a dick too.

He bustled past me at Twickenham once, with his security guard, as though he owned the place.

Saw Lawrie Sanchez outside Bristol Rovers v PNE in what must have been the late 90s. He was wearing sunglasses, despite it being very miserable winter weather.

He proceeded to trip over a police cone.

Larwrie Sanchez, won a few games for NI then baled to Fulham and exposed as out of his depth lol

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Cap'n regardless what you think of him as an individual, his analysis of front row play past and present is on the money.

You need to exterminate that sort of rational thought.

[tigerburnie]

Very easy to sort out the scrum dilemma, you enforce the existing law and make the scrum half put the ball straight down the middle and the hookers have a genuine competition for the ball. This will mean that the props will have to prop the scrum up so their hooker can have half a chance of hooking the ball, so ending the all in wrestling contest to see who gets the penalty. No need to change anything, just apply the existing laws as written.........................simples.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Cap'n regardless what you think of him as an individual, his analysis of front row play past and present is on the money.

You need to exterminate that sort of rational thought.

outstanding riposte tbf

[CIMANFOREVER]

Very easy to sort out the scrum dilemma, you enforce the existing law and make the scrum half put the ball straight down the middle and the hookers have a genuine competition for the ball. This will mean that the props will have to prop the scrum up so their hooker can have half a chance of hooking the ball, so ending the all in wrestling contest to see who gets the penalty. No need to change anything, just apply the existing laws as written.........................simples.

The ABC club would approve TB

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Cap'n regardless what you think of him as an individual, his analysis of front row play past and present is on the money.

You need to exterminate that sort of rational thought.

outstanding riposte tbf

TBH, while generally I don't have much time for Brian Moore, I cant actually say I disagree with his angle on scrums that you brought to our attention, but given your signature, I thought I would do some angling of my own....


Hook line and sinker!

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Very easy to sort out the scrum dilemma, you enforce the existing law and make the scrum half put the ball straight down the middle and the hookers have a genuine competition for the ball. This will mean that the props will have to prop the scrum up so their hooker can have half a chance of hooking the ball, so ending the all in wrestling contest to see who gets the penalty. No need to change anything, just apply the existing laws as written.........................simples.

I must admit that has long been my opinion.

I sorta agree with BM (please don't tell anyone), but I would go farther - I totally dislike the fact that if you have a dominant scrum, you can even manufacture a position where you can get the opposition down to 14, or less, simply by being stronger and milking penalties until a YC is issued. - (unless it's ulster that the dominant scrum of course, but that's not that common).

[Jetstream]

Hmmmm.

Strikes me as a bit of a dick too.

He bustled past me at Twickenham once, with his security guard, as though he owned the place.

Saw Lawrie Sanchez outside Bristol Rovers v PNE in what must have been the late 90s. He was wearing sunglasses, despite it being very miserable winter weather.

He proceeded to trip over a police cone.

He has I would guess been advised to wear them because he has an eye condition. No all disabilities are apparent. That he tripped over a cone also indicates a possible eyesight problem
I wear sunglasses in Winter due to Macular Degeneration

[tigerburnie]

Pitbull is an @rse, always has been, likes the sound of his own voice, he keeps saying the scrum is a method to restart the game, which shows his ignorance of what was going on behind him. The scrum has always been a platform, a weapon even, to either launch an attack on the oppositions line, or as a defensive ploy, if close to your own line. Dean Richards used to use so many different back row moves, he would often pack down between the flanker and lock rather than between the locks, with a different channel feed with the ball, many variations could be deployed. Whilst this was going on Moore was either eating dirt or had his head up his own backside and missed it all.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Pitbull is an @rse, always has been, likes the sound of his own voice, he keeps saying the scrum is a method to restart the game, which shows his ignorance of what was going on behind him. The scrum has always been a platform, a weapon even, to either launch an attack on the oppositions line, or as a defensive ploy, if close to your own line. Dean Richards used to use so many different back row moves, he would often pack down between the flanker and lock rather than between the locks, with a different channel feed with the ball, many variations could be deployed. Whilst this was going on Moore was either eating dirt or had his head up his own backside and missed it all.

Don't see enough use of the channel 1 ball any more TB. But you need to be dominant or at least steady cos the 8 isn't locking. But a great base for attack - although telegraphed if going blind.
Deano was hard as nails

[solidarity]

Technically, is Moore not right, the scrum is a method of restarting the game, as is the lineout? However, as it follows an offence, the restart method is supposed to help the 'innocent' team by being a platform for launching an attack or defensive manoeuvre. Same as a free kick or throw-in in wendyball.

[Cap'n Grumpy]

Technically, is Moore not right, the scrum is a method of restarting the game, as is the lineout? However, as it follows an offence, the restart method is supposed to help the 'innocent' team by being a platform for launching an attack or defensive manoeuvre. Same as a free kick or throw-in in wendyball.

Of course he is right that the scrum is a way of restarting the game, (as is the lineout) - it's not even "technically" - it is and always has been.

It is a means however that was always intended to be a competition to win the ball for one side or t'other. Over the years however it became a wrestling match not just to win the ball, but also to win a penalty, or more latterly a free-kick.

I think the problem arises in that penalties and free-kicks were intended to punish infringements of the laws by players intentionally going outside of those laws, but penalties can now be "won" by teams simply be being better (or appearing to be better) in one area and the opposition, no matter how well intended they are, cannot prevent (for example) a scrum collapse. Indeed if done several times, can even result in a yellow card and a new prop coming under similar pressurewith the team down to 14 or less.

There is a difference between someone dropping a scrum deliberatley, say to prevent being pushed over their own line, (which probably happened more in years gone by) and a scrum being dropped involuntarily simply by being bested by a stronger and/or more skillful/experienced player. The problem if there is one is that both are penalised the same (assuming the ref knows what has happened).

The question though should they be penalised the same given that the outcome is likely the same in both regards. Should a team who have scrum dominance not be rewarded for that? In my opiniom, yes, but I'm less in favour of yellow cards simply because a prop is inferior to his opponent, and actually incapable of keeping his side up no matter how he tries. I would be more in favour of a penalty try being awarded sooner if within 5m, and game goes back to the half-way line but they keep all players on the field. If they end up in the same position again, they concede another PT.

I wonder how many yellow cards are dished out for collapsing within 5m compared to the rest of the pitch? I would hazard a guess that its many times more, yet the "offence" is the same, ie, not deliberatly collapsing but being forced into collapsing.

The scrum laws are intended to make scrums more stable, but it is this trying to win penalties that makes it more unstable and injuries more likely.

BTW, I don't have an answer, just commenting on what I see.

PS - if and when Ulster have a scrum dominance, ignore all of the above - I want yellow cards and penalty tries.

[tigerburnie]

The Australians were behind the law changes, they couldn't scrum to save their lives, so the old "hit" was replaced by the "crouch, touch, engage farce. If the two front rows engage on their own then when the refs happy the locks then backrows join in, by then the game will have finished and everyone will have gone home bored. STOP FRICKING ABOUT WITH LAWS, bin the TMO and scrap the video screens, then we are back to playing rugby as it always was, oh and on grass not frickin' plastic.

[BR]

Scrums, on the other hand are the raison detre of rugby.

[CIMANFOREVER]

Scrums, on the other hand are the raison detre of rugby.

this ...