Ulster Midfield

[fuzzylogic]

by King Ding » Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:27 pm

A massive -1 from me King. Now to break it down a little.

Its quite frankly amazing that some people on here are starting to heavily criticise spence, one of our stand out players of last season, incase some are forgetting he has only just turned 21. Cave was given the chance to develop as a player and so should spence.

Regardless of age, Spence now plays the game as a professional. He will always be a target for criticism when he has a bad game likewise, praise when he has a stormer. Cave was given the chance to develop, but it was a totally different situation. Cave came into a struggling Ulster side and so was able to slide after a poor game because the rest of the team was in the same boat. However, Cave was also a more rounded player when he broke into the team.

Agreed Spence was one of our stand out players from last season. But lets not forget that last season he was an unknown quantity. Teams were not able to look at any video footage and see how he plays and spot his weakness'. This season unless he adds another dimension to his game, his hard and direct running will be easily snuffed out and defended against. Now if he was able to add an offload or 2 to his game or run a different line like Cave can then his direct running would create space for those around him, but at the minute, his game is only suited to setting up an attacking platform for the pack to present RP with quick ball, quick ball that we need a good 13 using..

Those righting him off as a crash ball centre when he clearly has more to offer need to catch themselves on. Its not his fault that ulster currently favour the smash it up style, if he was given the ball in a bit of space im confident with his pace and power he could get round his opposite number and not have to try go through him.

Im unsure where you have seen that he has more to offer, but for Ulster, that is all he has really shown. I would also be interested to see what Ulster games you have been watching in the last season or 2 to come to the conclusion Ulster favour a smash it up style . Ian Humph, Wallace, Cave, Gilroy, Trimble and D'arcy are all players who throw the ball about, im lost on this crash ball tactic you mention.

As for the whole cave/spence debate a lot seems to be hanging on their distribution skills, frankly neither are great passers of the ball and its no real surprise that for the last few seasons ulsters wingers had to go looking for work cause they rarely get the ball passed to them off 1st or 2nd phase.

The best wingers in the world all come inside and go looking for work, no winger with his pay cheque waits on the wing to receive the ball, they all go looking for work. I would also hate to see the ball going out to the wings on first or second phase ball unless its off a turnover. Thats the perfect recipie for going side to side and making no ground.

Its the start of the season, lets try our combinations with whitten, Marshall, Spence and Cave before wallace returns and then find out our best team and not just right off youngsters after 1 game.

I dont think anyone is writing anyone off. Its just a case of people saying what they think they can see in players, the forum is all about opinion.

[TinPig]

I have never seen Nevin Spence play a bad game for Ulster in any position.
He gives 100% every time.
The critics blaming poor vision & distribution skills are way over the top and totally unfair IMO.
His defence & commitment to the tackle are second to none (a must in the modern game).

My only worry is that he has so little disregard for his own wellbeing that we will see others take his place through injury sooner than later and it will only then that we see his true worth.

[King Ding]

Ok fuzzy lets see if this can at least put me at a 0

Regardless of age, Spence now plays the game as a professional. He will always be a target for criticism when he has a bad game likewise, praise when he has a stormer. Cave was given the chance to develop, but it was a totally different situation. Cave came into a struggling Ulster side and so was able to slide after a poor game because the rest of the team was in the same boat. However, Cave was also a more rounded player when he broke into the team.

Agreed Spence was one of our stand out players from last season. But lets not forget that last season he was an unknown quantity. Teams were not able to look at any video footage and see how he plays and spot his weakness'. This season unless he adds another dimension to his game, his hard and direct running will be easily snuffed out and defended against. Now if he was able to add an offload or 2 to his game or run a different line like Cave can then his direct running would create space for those around him, but at the minute, his game is only suited to setting up an attacking platform for the pack to present RP with quick ball, quick ball that we need a good 13 using..

Im interested to know how you think Cave was a more rounded player when he first broke into the side, admittedly i cant remember every game he played when he first got in the team but i do remember thinking he was out of his depth when he was first given a chance and wondered how long he would last, towards the middle of his break through season he hit some form as they say the rest is history. Spence on the other hand, after starting a few games for ulster last season became the teams go to guy and an ever present in the side. you say he needs to add something to his game and he is only good for setting up an attacking platform at the minute, well that imo comes down to how ulster used him, but we we will put that in the next paragraph.

Im unsure where you have seen that he has more to offer, but for Ulster, that is all he has really shown. I would also be interested to see what Ulster games you have been watching in the last season or 2 to come to the conclusion Ulster favour a smash it up style . Ian Humph, Wallace, Cave, Gilroy, Trimble and D'arcy are all players who throw the ball about, im lost on this crash ball tactic you mention.

The best wingers in the world all come inside and go looking for work, no winger with his pay cheque waits on the wing to receive the ball, they all go looking for work. I would also hate to see the ball going out to the wings on first or second phase ball unless its off a turnover. Thats the perfect recipie for going side to side and making no ground.

These 2 sort of roll into one argument. Now a question for you, can you think of any times in recent ulster games were off first phase ball, especially scrums, ulster have had a backs move that they dont crash it up? When if ever do Ulster do a Leinsteresque move which involves the centres simply handling or passing the ball and it ending up in a wingers hands in space, the most noted being the sexton wrap around. This is the basis for my "spence not being used well" and "wingers not getting passes" and "Ulster smash it up" arguments, it seems to be ulsters tactic to always establish a target in midfield and getting over the gainline off first phase ball, if not spence of a scrum its usually wannenburg or ferris from a short lineout. this is Mclaughs coaching style and the tactics that ulster employ. Once the game breaks up we tend to throw it round more. But even on friday night there were times when we were simply going from side to side while trying to smash a hole in midfield, marshalls try came from paddy mac busting a whole in the middle iirc.

For me this video shows exactly what ulster like to do of first phase ball, but the boy does well.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheUAFC?fea ... uXMxxHdDJw

Power/hand off to break the first tackle and pace and a step to get round the next, pretty much what im looking for from a 13, don't you think?

[TinPig]

God its marvellous to see Ulster Rugby fans in a position to argue the toss over who, of the several options, is better.

I think a full fit Cave is the better choice at 13 at the moment. I dont think either are 12's.

From what I have seen of Luke Marshall he is a 12 all day long.

Paddy Wallace will however remain the choice at 12 for a few years to come
There comes a time in life, gentlemen, where you just have to thank God for an embarassment of riches!

Lastknightoftheproms well said that man!!

And no bitchin about our own. Feckin short memory some people!!
+11

[TinPig]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_u ... 383810.stm

[King Ding]

i think we could produce videos and examples all day tinpig, some have short memories as you said.

[Nightsoil]

Spence's passing and hands in general could be better. I'd say that was fairly obvious from just watching him play.

Expecting him to be the complete article at 21 isn't fair - expecting a fully pro player to work on his game and iron out the flaws is. And he can make progress in this direction, witness the change in McFadden's/O'Malley's hands down at Leinster after Schmidt got hold of them. I think Spence is making progress already, first time he got the ball against Glasgow he got his arms free to offload. No one there, but he was looking for it. Seem to recall a nice offload to Brady later on. I'd say that shows a definite improvement from last season.

He's certainly a big talent - he's not just strong and quick, he's got a great fend and a not-bad sidestep. Also got a big boot, not that he often shows it. Supports well too. He's certainly got the potential to be more than an ordinary bosh merchant, although he's always a man you'll look for to take it up. Spence can both truck it up and exploit gaps that appear.

I'd say he was best at 13, but can clearly do a job at both 12 and wing and that's no bad thing. The better he gets the better he will get in all three positions. As it happens, there's players at Ulster I prefer to him in all of those positions, but I'd never worry about seeing him in any of them.

p.s. Although Payne has come to play here at 15, he was 13 most of last season and was talked up a lot as a potential All Black when he was. Should injuries strike, he'd be a pretty decent third choice outside centre to have hanging around to say the least - and that's the sort of strength in depth we should be aiming for.

[Fly Half]

notj wrote:
No way should Payne play centre for us! Great player, but we have two of the most exciting young centres in Ireland in Marshall and Spence, a current Ireland international in Wallace and two excellent club players in Cave and Whitten.

I have to say, I 100% disagree with this. Personally, I dont really see Spence developing into anything more than a crash ball big tackling centre a la Kevin Maggs or a smaller but quicker Mike Tindall.

Maggs has 70 caps for Ireland and Tindall is captain of England. Should that be something for a centre to aspire to?

No two players are the same and it is a bit simplistic to pigeonhole them thus.

[fuzzylogic]

by King Ding » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:09 pm

Ok fuzzy lets see if this can at least put me at a 0

Sorry King. You make some good arguments. But im afraid my mind wont be changed. For me Cave should be our first choice 13 and I dont see Spence living up to all the hype he has on this board.

No doubt about it, the kid has talent, but there are too many folk on this forum to seem to think Spence is going to be the next big name in world rugby.

I just dont see him being anything more than a route one strike runner.

But on this one, I will be very very very glad if im proven wrong.

by Fly Half » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:51 pm

Maggs has 70 caps for Ireland and Tindall is captain of England. Should that be something for a centre to aspire to?

You miss the point Fly Half. Did you read the whole thread or just pick up my post out of context.

Never said there was anything wrong with that style of player, im just making the point that that is the type of player I see Spence ending up as, and that I dont believe he is as good as he is made out to be by some folk here.

[Fly Half]

by Fly Half » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:51 pm

Maggs has 70 caps for Ireland and Tindall is captain of England. Should that be something for a centre to aspire to?

You miss the point Fly Half. Did you read the whole thread or just pick up my post out of context.

Never said there was anything wrong with that style of player, im just making the point that that is the type of player I see Spence ending up as, and that I dont believe he is as good as he is made out to be by some folk here.

No, I read the whole thread.

It's disappointing to know how Spence will turn out - but to compensate would you mind giving me the lottery numbers for Saturday please?

[Dave]

I for one am not critcising Spence he is a gem the debate is really about how to best get the benefits from his game for the benefit of the team.

The fact is we have a number of players who can play in the centre within the squad and the Academy at the moment Cave is with out doubt our best option at 13 How and where do you play Spence ?

Rum,

I get a sense of small club mentality from your post there my friend. The mentality that we have had at Ulster over the past couple of years in order to merely survive. The mentality that suggests that you have to play your best 15 every game in order to win ala EOS' Ireland. The fact is now rugby is very much a squad game and at long last we seem to have the best squad in well maybe ever... it isn't a case of finding somewhere to fit Spence or Cave if one or the other is to play because next week the opposition and tactics may require an entirely different player. With a squad game we need options. We need a bench that can be utilised to change the game plan if one isn't working. Teams like Leinster, Northampton, Toulouse etc. have a squad that they rotate for league games and then they only bring their best HEC team for the crucial ties. It doesn't have to be set in stone now. Spence IMO can play 12 or 13 and will develop his passing. I remember when Tommy Bowe couldn't catch a cold or tackle his granny! If people don't believe players can change or improve then what is it the point in coaching?

Humph has real ambition for Ulster and if the current squad continues to develop as we hope it does I can see us seeing many differing midfield options being used. We will have injuries, Ireland call ups and player rest periods over the coming seasons. I don't see many weak options with any of our centres with either Marshall, Wallace, Whitten, Spence at 12 and Spence, Cave, Payne as options at 13. Currently with Marshall being nursed back from injury and PW at the WC I personally would stick with Spence/Cave in the centre. The future looks promising with the homegrown talent in the back division.

[fuzzylogic]

by Fly Half » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:11 pm

fuzzylogic wrote:

You miss the point Fly Half. Did you read the whole thread or just pick up my post out of context.

Never said there was anything wrong with that style of player, im just making the point that that is the type of player I see Spence ending up as, and that I dont believe he is as good as he is made out to be by some folk here.

No, I read the whole thread.

It's disappointing to know how Spence will turn out - but to compensate would you mind giving me the lottery numbers for Saturday please?

Again Fly Half, if you would actually like to read the posts, its quite clear that the above is my opinion on how Spence will turn out and I have said I will be very happy if im wrong.

So you can take your lottery numbers and shove them up ur Brennan for being an ignorant banker.

[rumncoke]

Its not small team survival to play your best XV when available its what is necessary for success . Players get injured take knocks and at times are not 100% that is when you rest them Then there are players like Ferris who are injury prone who you wrap in cotton wool for important games and give others the opportunity to gain experience.

Both Leinster and Munster have a large number of Irish Internationals who are subject to restricted exposure and must be rested. Ulster has fewer players ( at present ) subject to these restrictions.

The fact that Irish players are rested is one of the major complaints from the English press come ERC games because English clubs don't rest players . The best available XV is on the pitch at all times . French clubs may be different but some came in for criticism because they rest players in ERC games so as to ensure their best XV was available for League games.

Northampton last year found that squad was too weak due Internationals and injuries and lost several games during the 6Ns.

A strong squad is not about rotation a strong squad is necessary to cover injuries ( which frequently occur )

[Lurgan Lad]

Spence's passing and hands in general could be better. I'd say that was fairly obvious from just watching him play.

Expecting him to be the complete article at 21 isn't fair - expecting a fully pro player to work on his game and iron out the flaws is. And he can make progress in this direction, witness the change in McFadden's/O'Malley's hands down at Leinster after Schmidt got hold of them. I think Spence is making progress already, first time he got the ball against Glasgow he got his arms free to offload. No one there, but he was looking for it. Seem to recall a nice offload to Brady later on. I'd say that shows a definite improvement from last season.

He's certainly a big talent - he's not just strong and quick, he's got a great fend and a not-bad sidestep. Also got a big boot, not that he often shows it. Supports well too. He's certainly got the potential to be more than an ordinary bosh merchant, although he's always a man you'll look for to take it up. Spence can both truck it up and exploit gaps that appear.

I'd say he was best at 13, but can clearly do a job at both 12 and wing and that's no bad thing. The better he gets the better he will get in all three positions. As it happens, there's players at Ulster I prefer to him in all of those positions, but I'd never worry about seeing him in any of them.

p.s. Although Payne has come to play here at 15, he was 13 most of last season and was talked up a lot as a potential All Black when he was. Should injuries strike, he'd be a pretty decent third choice outside centre to have hanging around to say the least - and that's the sort of strength in depth we should be aiming for.

This would be exactly how I feel, couldn't have said it better myself. When I mention areas Spence could improve it is because I think he has such a high ceiling as a player, I want him to be first choice for Ireland in a few years. I would agree he hasn't had one bad game for Ulster and he does appear to be looking to offload in the tackle more than last year already so can see him improving before my eyes.

[Big-al]

+1 lurgan lad