The case against Mr Wayne Barnes.

[Deraless]

This was nicked off youtube. I know we sometimes get the reputation of whinging about refs, but it's hard not to watch this well prepared evidence and not believe Ireland were royally screwed:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IEuXfewLcuY

[ruckover]

Some decent points raised but nothing to be seen here in my opinion.

Firstly, a dominant scrum does not mean it is legal. I don't know if Barnes did get it wrong at the scrum I will admit that, but the point that the video makes that because Ireland's scrum was going forward it therefore should be rewarded is incorrect. There are plenty of moves a prop can pull that gives them the upper hand in the set piece that are illegal.

Secondly, the breakdown is very very difficult to officiate. I remember hearing someone say that if a referee stuck to the law book then there would be a penalty at every ruck, and that is probably true. What the majority of referees will do is only penalise the offences that directly affect the outcome of a ruck. For example, if a player comes in at the side of a ruck that is already well established and does not have any players counter-rucking then there is most certainly a case for turning a blind eye to it to preserve the flow of the game. It is a completely different scenario to a player that comes in the side and takes out a player with his hands on the ball.

Certainly for not releasing the ball a referee has to see definitive proof that the ball carrier is preventing an opponent from stealing the ball. In the provided clips in the video I don't see enough proof in them to justify a penalty for Ireland. The one where it appears SOB (I think it is SOB) has his hands on the ball looks like it should be a penalty, but I don't think he securely has his hands on the ball and thus is not guaranteed of stealing it had the carrier released, therefore no penalty for me.

Off your feet tends to be a very subjective one also. A lot of players will enter a ruck on their feet, and as a result of impacting an opponent will tend to lose their footing and fall over, thus going off their feet and sealing the ball off. This is different to a player immediately lying on the ball to protect it. For me in several of the examples in the video this off feet after impact occurs and as such, does not warrant a penalty. If a player enters a ruck, a team is permitted to clear that player out - if they fall over in the process and accidentally seal the ball off then I don't see any justifiable reason to punish them, it would mean a player has been penalised for trying to secure the ball in a legal manner.

The video is correct in that the offside line must be better officiated, and a player should probably have been sin-binned after the penalty try (something I didn't notice at the time) but I cannot see anything to suggest Ireland were cheated out of the victory.

I have no expert knowledge on the rules, this is simply my take on it.

[bazzaj]

Can't upload the link for some reason but I shave seen enough of Barnes to know that he basically wants a game where there is no interference at the breakdown with the view to producing quicker ball and a more flowing game.
This really negates the need for jackals as they will get pinged all day as we saw first half.
Therefore as the breakdown is a non contest, big ball carriers will come into their own as they can gain yardage without fear of the opposition being allowed to steal.

Also the chop tackling style is not being addressed which is illegal as there is no use of the arms.
The Welsh use this to stop our runners at source.
Its almost come to a point where you don't just select horses for course's based on the weather or opposition but also on who is officiating.

[Snipe Watson]

A lowlights reel like that serves as evidence of mistakes, not as evidence of bias.

[Dave]

The video reveals the inconsistency of Barnes. That's why all sides dislike him. I agree he isn't biased but if you pi$h him off, through whining at him like sob, he will think twice about giving a call in your favour. You have to manage his ego.

[Rooster]

You could probably do a similar video for the benefit of Wales, in fact you could do similar for every match with every ref, as has been said before it is very doubtful that any rucks are 100% within the laws.

[Dave]

Although, sexton made no attempt to clear out a player. He just flops down behind Payne. At least the Welsh players are clearing out irish players.

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

by being very strict from ruck one - towards both teams - Barnes made that game one of the great matches that have been played in recent memory.

what a test match it was. phase after phase, tackle after tackle. the 20-something plus another 20-something phases would not have happened with most other refs on the field - an infringment would have occurred by the defensive team.

Let's not forget it was Warburton who ended up in the bin for 10.

[BuckRogers]

His consistency is a huge problem IMO. The only one thing you can, and should, ask from a referee is consistency in their own application of the laws. Barnes is a wild card as we saw in the first half with 4 penalties against us in 12 minutes and subsequent binning of Warburton.

It wasn't his fault we lost but he was poor overall.

[BuckRogers]

It was a frustratingly inefficient performance from Ireland. The definitely blew it IMO.

Schmidt ball relies on clinical, unswerving accuracy and ours was absolute dung on Saturday. The 4 on 2 on their line summed that up for me when the forwards kept trundling at the fringes.

I have no problem with Schmidt-ball but Saturday smacked on automatrons sticking rigidly to a plan with ZERO ability to think outside the box a little. That example was case in point. I think, personally, that is the players fault rather than a coaching one. As has been said we would almost certainly have got 5/7 points if BOD had been on the pitch.

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

His consistency is a huge problem IMO. The only one thing you can, and should, ask from a referee is consistency in their own application of the laws. Barnes is a wild card as we saw in the first half with 4 penalties against us in 12 minutes and subsequent binning of Warburton.

It wasn't his fault we lost but he was poor overall.

All of those were legitimate penalties. Warburton's was fair.
Relating to videos like that nonsense posted above is like referring to statistics.

Are you a statto, Buckweed?

The penalty scrums - he explained exactly why they were being given. When he did so there was little complaint.
Breakdown penalties - again there was very little (with the exception of one/two SOB tantrums) complaining once his decision had been explained.

Barnes allowed that game to flow. Surely that's preferable to his whistle constantly hanging from his mouth and the RPI he'd suffer from lifting his arm every 30 seconds?

The welsh learned how to avoid penalty at the breakdown. It only enhances perception of their defensive effort that they absorbed 40-50 phases of play so rapidly and - without giving away a penalty - turned over ball.

At every breakdown you could see players making sure that they were far enough out of the way to avoid getting pinged. When they didn't - even if they weren't able to move - they were penalised.

It was a refreshing sight. But, sure, have a gurn.

[BuckRogers]

Barnes allowed that game to flow. Surely that's preferable to his whistle constantly hanging from his mouth and the RPI he'd suffer from lifting his arm every 30 seconds?

Which is usually is wont. Ergo he was inconsistent. Which is my only real complaint or as you eloquently put it, whinge.

Or have I missed something?

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

It was a frustratingly inefficient performance from Ireland. The definitely blew it IMO.

Schmidt ball relies on clinical, unswerving accuracy and ours was absolute dung on Saturday. The 4 on 2 on their line summed that up for me when the forwards kept trundling at the fringes.

I have no problem with Schmidt-ball but Saturday smacked on automatrons sticking rigidly to a plan with ZERO ability to think outside the box a little. That example was case in point. I think, personally, that is the players fault rather than a coaching one. As has been said we would almost certainly have got 5/7 points if BOD had been on the pitch.

There was a clear switch from Plan A - kick - to Plan B - carry.
That neither worked is testament to the Welsh players being disciplined and leaving nothing on the pitch. It's also testament to Edwards and Gatland who formulated a plan to foil the gameplan that swept England aside so (relatively) easily.

Agreed - chances were butchered.
That said, better to learn the lesson now and take away from it, than to scrap a win on Saturday, get the Grand Slam and then lose our heads in a vital World Cup game.

[WhiteKnightoftheWeld]

Barnes allowed that game to flow. Surely that's preferable to his whistle constantly hanging from his mouth and the RPI he'd suffer from lifting his arm every 30 seconds?

Which is usually is wont. Ergo he was inconsistent. Which is my only real complaint or as you eloquently put it, whinge.

Or have I missed something?

His wont... Nonsense.
Games with Barnes usually are reffed well at the breakdown. You won't agree with every decision but he will make a decision. If a team listens to him, they'll be fine.

Think McCaw. Try anything once, and if you get pinged don't try it again.
Or, if you're Ireland, wait until you've conceded 12 points in 12 mins and then get the finger out. Not smart enough.

So, what you've missed....

You've missed that Ireland were slow out of the blocks, and gave away penalty after penalty in the first 10 mins. Against 1/2penny - goodnight.

You've missed that Wales were carded twice, Ireland weren't at all.
You've missed that Ireland were awarded a penalty try.
You've missed that Ireland conceded 11 penalties, Wales 13.

You've missed therefore that Wales were a lot more heavily penalised than Ireland.

You've missed that he - very sternly - spoke to POC and the Warburton early on. Ireland in fact cleaned themselves up at the ruck; Wales mostly did with a few exception. You've missed that during said 'fabled' 50-odd phases of play, Wales did not infringe once. They kept their heads. Ireland weren't clinical enough.

Not enough guile or streetsmart at the breakdown. Not enough cutting edge in attack. Poor in the lineout. That's where the game was lost. How is any of that Barnes fault?

[Rooster]

It was a frustratingly inefficient performance from Ireland. The definitely blew it IMO.

Schmidt ball relies on clinical, unswerving accuracy and ours was absolute dung on Saturday. The 4 on 2 on their line summed that up for me when the forwards kept trundling at the fringes.

I have no problem with Schmidt-ball but Saturday smacked on automatrons sticking rigidly to a plan with ZERO ability to think outside the box a little. That example was case in point. I think, personally, that is the players fault rather than a coaching one. As has been said we would almost certainly have got 5/7 points if BOD had been on the pitch.

There was a clear switch from Plan A - kick - to Plan B - carry.
That neither worked is testament to the Welsh players being disciplined and leaving nothing on the pitch. It's also testament to Edwards and Gatland who formulated a plan to foil the gameplan that swept England aside so (relatively) easily.

Agreed - chances were butchered.
That said, better to learn the lesson now and take away from it, than to scrap a win on Saturday, get the Grand Slam and then lose our heads in a vital World Cup game.

That is the real key to this all, scrape through and think all we need to worry about is SH sides instead of being focused and knowing one daft decision like that try line blunder will end the RWC for another 4 years.