Hook has a go at Payne

[BuckRogers]

How many games against Tier 1 nations was Cave given? Payne seems to be given as many games as he likes to get up to speed. 5 games in a row now Payne has flattered to deceive. He hasn't once looked like creating something, scoring or causing the opposition any head aches.

Payne has flattered to deceive in 5 games...what barometer are we using here to measure success of deception? I agree on the last sentence for the record but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I am led to believe that according to the KPI's on which players are judged Payne is close to the bottom ie least mistakes made.

That's not necessarily what makes a good 13 IMO, as England are discovering with the electric Joseph in the midfield, but it is seemingly one of Schmidt's way at present.

[BR]

Players playing for countries other than the one of their birth has been going on as long as I can remember. Scotland had the kilted kiwis, New Zealand have always had first refusal on the islanders for decades. It used to be that you could change allegiance half way through your career. Shane Howarth All Blacks and Wales until it was realised he had no Welsh link. There were others too a former All Black played for Japan. Can't remember his name.

The Argentinean/italian connection led to many dual nationalities. Also there were kiwis who could make it onto the PI teams before they could make it into the All Blacks (and retiring All Blacks who could still hack it on the PI teams). The new rules tightened all that up. Still leaves some anomalies, where tours are involved, or 'presidents CVS', but it's a lot better than it was.

However, I'll say again - NZ don't steal PI players. NZ rugby, as a whole, supplies and develops PI players!

[Snipe Watson]

However, I'll say again - NZ don't steal PI players. NZ rugby, as a whole, supplies and develops PI players!

That's a fair point. Didn't NZ propose a special dispensation allowing former All Blacks to play for their birth country after retiring from the All Blacks.

[BR]

However, I'll say again - NZ don't steal PI players. NZ rugby, as a whole, supplies and develops PI players!

That's a fair point. Didn't NZ propose a special dispensation allowing former All Blacks to play for their birth country after retiring from the All Blacks.

I believe they did. The idea has some merit. Allowing players to contribute to lower tiers of international rugby after they can't make it at the top. However - where do you draw the lines between tiers (can you play for the bottom of tier 1 and then play for the top of tier 2?). Also nobody wants to see Tonga (for example) become the 'Balding Blacks' [ (c) BR 2015].

[Russ]

Nobody wants to see France have a Fijian Academy either

[brianc]

Jeez, this load of utter crap is why many people, myself included, don't bother to post anymore. Just to sprinkle a few facts into the sh*te about Kiwis poaching foreign players, read the following & then either apologise for being a knob or partake in Baggy's assisted suicide thread, (shamefully deleted by the Nazi moderators ).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opin ... a-poaching

And in reference to George Hook, for me it was not his view of Jared's performance/ability that was shocking, it was bringing his nationality into it.

[BaggyTrousers]

Players playing for countries other than the one of their birth has been going on as long as I can remember. Scotland had the kilted kiwis, New Zealand have always had first refusal on the islanders for decades. It used to be that you could change allegiance half way through your career. Shane Howarth All Blacks and Wales until it was realised he had no Welsh link. There were others too a former All Black played for Japan. Can't remember his name.

Aye Howarth's Welsh grandad was actually English. Then of course there was Paricio Noriega who played for Argentina 20 or so times then did the same for Australia. Not certain but I think it was he who was the last player to play for 2 countries.

Ireland had Brian Smith who had already played for Australia and I know many were unhappy that he played for Ireland, me included, & in all honesty I would be surprised if Hook didn't nail his colours to the mast then and that is many years ago so the chubes having a nark about Kook should understand that he has long advocated Irish players for Irish shirts .

[BaggyTrousers]

Jeez, this load of utter crap is why many people, myself included, don't bother to post anymore. Just to sprinkle a few facts into the sh*te about Kiwis poaching foreign players, read the following & then either apologise for being a knob or partake in Baggy's assisted suicide thread, (shamefully deleted by the Nazi moderators ).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opin ... a-poaching

And in reference to George Hook, for me it was not his view of Jared's performance/ability that was shocking, it was bringing his nationality into it.

Jaysus Brian, you're easily shocked ..................sure everybody knows Jihadi Jared is a Kiwi basturd, keeping indigenous talent like that young Cave fella out of a green shirt.

Don't know how you feel about it, I reckon it's a fecking calumny.

Anyone think Jihad is an Irishman? Anybody reckon he won't feck off back to Auckland as soon as he stops rugby? He's as Irish as my Granny & she's English.

[BR]

Jeez, this load of utter crap is why many people, myself included, don't bother to post anymore. Just to sprinkle a few facts into the sh*te about Kiwis poaching foreign players, read the following & then either apologise for being a knob or partake in Baggy's assisted suicide thread, (shamefully deleted by the Nazi moderators ).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opin ... a-poaching

And in reference to George Hook, for me it was not his view of Jared's performance/ability that was shocking, it was bringing his nationality into it.

Brian - I would humbly apply for exemption from both the apologising and the swiss clinic.

[Tazz #15]

Unless there is a change in ethos I don't think Olding will be involved at the top level. More chance of McCloskey making it.

Could be true Jackie, but for me the scenario we now find ourselves in for this weekend is perfect for Stuart Olding. Granted we are not always going to find ourselves in that same position. I would have no qualms with either man taking the field in the green jersey.

How many games against Tier 1 nations was Cave given? Payne seems to be given as many games as he likes to get up to speed. 5 games in a row now Payne has flattered to deceive. He hasn't once looked like creating something, scoring or causing the opposition any head aches.

Argentina class as tier 1 yes? All Blacks? Don't get me wrong here, there's nothing I'd love to see more than to see Cave get a run in the green 13 jersey, it's the very least the guy deserves for consistent levels of performance shown with our wee province, and indeed the form shown since he took back the 13 shirt at Ulster. However, for one reason or another he's not getting the shot. Is it because he has 'flattered to deceive' in the chances he has had? Or did Darren hit the nail on the head with his 'face doesn't fit' statement? Who knows.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not anti-Cave, couldn't be further from it, but I just think some of the criticism Jared has taken over the course of the season has been slightly harsh and unfair.

Baggy I am fully aware that Hook has always thought that of 'foreigners', I was making reference to those on this forum who may have adapted their stance slightly. Like everything else in rugby, and in life in general, it has many positives and negatives, and you can't have one without the other.

[BaggyTrousers]

You know what Tazz, as I said I am happy for Ulster to get the likes of Payne & Herbst BUT in reality, the main criticism that most rugby pundits have of the project system is that in the main, it has produced more or less feck all. I'm tired tonight but I just can't bring to mind any project who has been a remote success for Ireland.

We/Ireland are producing young guys by the dozen - mainly Mexicans in fairness - who have at least as good a chance of making the grade as any project.

I said I reckoned Hook as about 90% right and the other 10% the was the problem that we would be disadvantaged compared to other countries, but on second thoughts, a project appears to have about a 10% chance of being a good quality international, so many have been utter dross.

Payne is a very talented player, I just think he sucks balls at 13, he is no Darren Cave & Darren is no BOD, just a very good Irish player who hasn't had a chance.( A chance being given a game in a full Irish selection, he has always played in a second string dominated team)

[Snipe Watson]

You know what Tazz, as I said I am happy for Ulster to get the likes of Payne & Herbst BUT in reality, the main criticism that most rugby pundits have of the project system is that in the main, it has produced more or less feck all. I'm tired tonight but I just can't bring to mind any project who has been a remote success for Ireland.

We/Ireland are producing young guys by the dozen - mainly Mexicans in fairness - who have at least as good a chance of making the grade as any project.

I said I reckoned Hook as about 90% right and the other 10% the was the problem that we would be disadvantaged compared to other countries, but on second thoughts, a project appears to have about a 10% chance of being a good quality international, so many have been utter dross.

Payne is a very talented player, I just think he sucks balls at 13, he is no Darren Cave & Darren is no BOD, just a very good Irish player who hasn't had a chance.( A chance being given a game in a full Irish selection, he has always played in a second string dominated team)

I suspect Stander followed by Herbst may break that pattern.

[Deraless]

I hope no-one on here is the guy who has stood behind me at a few matches shouting O'Payne every time he goes near the ball. It was mildly amusing the first time but because you got a few titters doesn't mean you should just shout "O'Payne" every single time he is involved!

[BuckRogers]

You know what Tazz, as I said I am happy for Ulster to get the likes of Payne & Herbst BUT in reality, the main criticism that most rugby pundits have of the project system is that in the main, it has produced more or less feck all. I'm tired tonight but I just can't bring to mind any project who has been a remote success for Ireland.

We/Ireland are producing young guys by the dozen - mainly Mexicans in fairness - who have at least as good a chance of making the grade as any project.

I said I reckoned Hook as about 90% right and the other 10% the was the problem that we would be disadvantaged compared to other countries, but on second thoughts, a project appears to have about a 10% chance of being a good quality international, so many have been utter dross.

Payne is a very talented player, I just think he sucks balls at 13, he is no Darren Cave & Darren is no BOD, just a very good Irish player who hasn't had a chance.( A chance being given a game in a full Irish selection, he has always played in a second string dominated team)

I suspect Stander followed by Herbst may break that pattern.

I think Stander is dreadfully average personally.

Herbst will be there or thereabouts but in Moore and Furlong leinster have two very good young TH's coming through.

Payne's a great player who is an average centre.

Strauss is a pretty good hooker as well to be fair to him, or certainly was on fire prior to his heart issues.

The only real Turkey of a Non-irish born Irish player was Bent and he was qualified through residency.

The project thing has only really been about for the last 5/6 years, officially anyway. It hasn't delivered us a World Class player yet but no real shitesters either to be fair.

If we play Payne at fB we might just have the first world class one.

[BaggyTrousers]

You know what Tazz, as I said I am happy for Ulster to get the likes of Payne & Herbst BUT in reality, the main criticism that most rugby pundits have of the project system is that in the main, it has produced more or less feck all. I'm tired tonight but I just can't bring to mind any project who has been a remote success for Ireland.

We/Ireland are producing young guys by the dozen - mainly Mexicans in fairness - who have at least as good a chance of making the grade as any project.

I said I reckoned Hook as about 90% right and the other 10% the was the problem that we would be disadvantaged compared to other countries, but on second thoughts, a project appears to have about a 10% chance of being a good quality international, so many have been utter dross.

Payne is a very talented player, I just think he sucks balls at 13, he is no Darren Cave & Darren is no BOD, just a very good Irish player who hasn't had a chance.( A chance being given a game in a full Irish selection, he has always played in a second string dominated team)

I suspect Stander followed by Herbst may break that pattern.

All I can say to that Snipe is that I hope that is the case because to date nobody of note has appeared, indeed quite a few who were recruited have been so poor that they have been gassed by Leinster they were so poor, there have been 2 or 3, can't name them but one was a second row who they dumped faster than you can say Jihadi Jared.