Ulster v Zebre Fri 4th Mar 7:35pm BBCNI

[OneMore]

Snipe I think you'll find I named specifically the two high tariff kicks he bottled / turned down against Scarlets which cost us the game or was that not clear

I don't think he has hit anything recently Pienaar couldn't, Pienaar most certainly would have nailed one if not both of the kicks turned down against Scarlets.

Do I think he is a bad kicker? Most certainly not..... just to be clear.

I have no idea why the kicks against Scarlets were turned down and neither do you. For you to assume the conclusion that suits your argument doesn't make your assumption correct.

Snipe come on you've a more intelligent rugby brain than that. You don't turn down the posts in a one score game unless your kicker feels they're not up to it.

I wasn't privy to the discussion so I don't know. My rugby brain was not consulted.

9, I don't often consider you an utter ar$e but yer talking out of it on this occasion. In terms of who would easily have slotted what may I refer you to Mr R Pienaar's lamentable effort recently, his first attempt of the season at Spanners, and a shocking miss from what would have been the equivalent of a wendyball penalty kick.

I'd then remind you of Mr P Jackson, of this parish, kicking sublime touchline conversions & mahoosive penalties against the likes of the mighty Oyonnax & Dragons when any single miss would have lost those games.

Finally mon brave, the kicks you erroneously suggest Paddy bottled were not at a stage of the game when "bottle" comes into it, they were good opportunities which were scorned, in all likelihood, through "game plan" considerations, so I suspect the reasons Paddy did not essay a kick would be more in the remit of those in the coaching box rather than any weakness in his intestinal fortitude.

Now then, that adjudicated, here endeth the matter.

You're welcome.

Absolutely with Baggy here. Declining the efforts at goal was no reflection whatsoever on Jackson's confidence of scoring them. He had been kicking exceptionally well and in my opinion has never shirred anything in his rugby career, seems to be the sort of guy who backs himself always.

[big mervyn]

Muller usually took the points until the game was won.

[Snipe Watson]

Muller usually took the points until the game was won.

He was a leader of men, probably still is. I'd love to see him back here in some capacity, but he's down on the farm.

[Kofi Annan]

Muller usually took the points until the game was won.

He was a leader of men, probably still is. I'd love to see him back here in some capacity, but he's down on the farm.

Would the current coaching ticket want him? Would they listen to him?

[Snipe Watson]

Muller usually took the points until the game was won.

He was a leader of men, probably still is. I'd love to see him back here in some capacity, but he's down on the farm.

Would the current coaching ticket want him? Would they listen to him?

No idea.

[fuzzylogic]

by big mervyn » Sun Mar 06, 2016 8:07 pm

Muller usually took the points until the game was won.

And in all his time here, he led us to sweet FA in terms of winning anything... so maybe thats not the right approach

[SparkyClarky]

Before I post this I have to say this used to be a forum when you could post your own thoughts on a game of rugby!

Now more than most you are open to attack by the bully's of this site and the self imposed Judges of a good or bad post.

I wish Ulster had a few of these on the pitch, because we are too nice, too friendly and just to predicticable. Unlike this bloody forum that will drive us all to distraction. I have to say on meeting Joe our collision coach at David Lloyds I was optimistic as to what we could attain. However a team that could provide rampaging forwards running over weak opposition and giving fast distribution to aback line that could cut through any defence in the league became a dream that was never to be!

The reality is that we have a tight 5 consisting of the likes Luton, Black, Warrick who attempt to burrow under the gain line, an honest operator in Van De Merve who makes the rest look inept with Alan O'Connor who in time will decimate opposition defences but isn't Brad Thorn. A back row of a returning Chris Henry who isn't getting over the gainline with no speed or getting any where near enough ball turned over, an aging Roger Wilson, Soft safer Robbie Diack (great in the line out.... brad pitt getting over the gainline. Back ups of Pete Brown and a casualty list of Dan T etc

Ruan P who has put in the worst season since arriving in an Ulster Shirt, Paddy Jackson who can kick from the tee these days most of the time but continues to kick from restarts far to deep and continually doesn't give chasers ( who do not chase that often) a chance to contest a restart. Or doesn't stick in the 9th row to spot a quick restart on an exit strategy?

A back line who unlike some of the opposition we have faced are unaware of what running the defence at full gas actually is?
Cave is a fans fav here but he just doesn't have the gas, yes great at organising the defence but virus or not, isn't cutting it. Payne not at full back etc and Stockdale a clone of Robbie Diack who doesn't seem to know the word aggression. Don't tell me he's only 19 as there are plenty in Hydebank!

It would be nice to see a team dominate the gainline.

It would be nice to see our team get over the gainline.

It would be nice to see our team in defence send their team in reverse over our gain line.

It would be nice to see our team avoid contact and break the gainline. (Clean breaks)
Instead of trying to burrow down a feckin rabbit hole!

It would be nice to actually see our team play a game and control the tempo of the game and doesn't mean playing in slow Motion? Doakies last two years 'we want to dictate the tempo" as long as it slow enough for ou flecks to keep up!

Turn a defence and get some front foot ball?

Please let us fans create the atmosphere without a feckin band of imports who had never been to an Ulster match before you contacted the good Professo at Queen's to play during our own line out or when we kick for the posts or set a false atmosphere that was better with 5-6000 fans in 2003-06 or play a feckin midi drum beat over the Front of House Public Address for a shout out for Ulster!

Please forget about the crap media interviews of all the players with we have trained so well, we are going to put it right crap with your student Media Students importedfor free after last years recruitment drive!

Ulster rugby if you are reading this.
After 27 years of supporting this team I am considering decking off and not renewing my 2 season tickets (used to be 4 until two years back).

This might come as a big supprise but unless the team either wins year in year out or entertains us fans week in week out, we generally are not interested in Facebook, radio interviews, brass bands, promises of world domination, Dickheads from Q Radio, Feckin catch the ball with Doakies kids kick in or not!

We want a feckin trophy in the cabinet and we are not going to get it without the likes of the 1F's, Hendersons, Williams who could actually get over the gainline line. Fastball getting in behind defences and a quick game plan not allowing for defence rests etc!

Logan yo have been gifted a new stadium and a bedding in process, you can stick your corporate crap were the sun don't shine, time to perform!j

I for one am fed up and considering abandoning ship. You will have only a limited few seasons of newness and football converts!

Sort it out!

Fed up with the crap served up this week, if this was a reaction then it's time to wake up and smell the roses.

For anyone who disagrees you know where to stick it!""""" :

#FedUpDisallusionedFeckedOffHadEnoughMightNotRenewTheSeasonTicketsEtcEtcEtc

[Deraless]

Re going for the corner versus taking the 3 points: assuming that a try leads to 7 points, and that every penalty is successful, a team needs to score 43% of the times it goes for the corner. I suspect we are nowhere near that. Sometimes it feels like we don't even hit the jumper that many times. If there is one thing which has me watching through my hands it's our 5m line-outs. Even in nights when our set-piece seems rock solid we frequently seem to make a hash of it.

Obviously things like field position, wind etc are factors but I think we're talking about refusing 3 points on offer that you would bet on your kicker to get.

I'd say going to the corner should only be used in exceptional circumstances, like when you're more than a score down with time running out, or when then game is won and a bonus point beckons. Statistically most teams will end up with more points taking the kicks.

[againstthehead]

I enjoyed that Sparkey Clarkey - certainly wearing your heart on your sleeve and hard to see too much fault in it. I wouldn't be too hard on the players/coaches. The players just aren't up to it. A bit like Ireland really. Take away a bit of half-decent talent and the rest is mediocrity. A little bit of depth in the backs maybe but fek all up front. Even at full-strength, we're pretty average in the pack. The sames ol lads on here have been blowing on about Diack and Cave for years. Not sure if I've even seen DIack break wind never mind a tackle. Cave is a great lad and not the messiah that half the eejits on here go on about. Jared is twice the player. Ruan has been overplayed for a couple of seasons now but what other choice do we have. Don't worry, once we get Best and Henderson back, we'll win a couple of games and the same whingers will be saying how we'll top the table.

In reality you've rarely as good as your last win and rarely as bad as your last defeat. We're just a bit ordinary. A couple of big signings are coming and they should point us in the right direction. I think this year is a bedding in year for Kiss. Next season might be a bit more interesting but we'll need luck with injuries which never seems to happen really.

[Neil F]

Re going for the corner versus taking the 3 points: assuming that a try leads to 7 points, and that every penalty is successful, a team needs to score 43% of the times it goes for the corner. I suspect we are nowhere near that. Sometimes it feels like we don't even hit the jumper that many times. If there is one thing which has me watching through my hands it's our 5m line-outs. Even in nights when our set-piece seems rock solid we frequently seem to make a hash of it.

Obviously things like field position, wind etc are factors but I think we're talking about refusing 3 points on offer that you would bet on your kicker to get.

I'd say going to the corner should only be used in exceptional circumstances, like when you're more than a score down with time running out, or when then game is won and a bonus point beckons. Statistically most teams will end up with more points taking the kicks.

Although Ulster are hideously frustrating when going for the corner at times, there is more to the logic of doing it than the simple calculus of the probability of scoring 5 or 7 points versus the probability of scoring 3. Assuming a successful kick, the opposition get a big chance to relive the pressure from the halfway line. A bungled attempt for a try, unless it's really bungled, will probably keep the pressure on. At best, you'd expect the opposition to be going for pressurised clearing kicks that either go to the hands of the waiting back three, or goes into touch, usually well inside the defending team's half, allowing further establishment of field position, possession and pressure from the attacking team. It's a tactic I'm actually pleased to see Ulster employ, even when they mess it up, because over the course of the game, the effort involved in resisting continued defensive pressure in the red zone is often worth a lot more than the three points. Unfortunately, the only way to get better in those situations is to keep trying.

Directly, you're right when you say that statistically most teams will score more going for the posts; but over the course of the game, it is probably a different story, even if that is much harder to statistically quantify.

[BaggyTrousers]

Before I post this I have to say this used to be a forum when you could post your own thoughts on a game of rugby!

Now more than most you are open to attack by the bully's of this site and the self imposed Judges of a good or bad post.

I wish Ulster had a few of these on the pitch, because we are too nice, too friendly and just to predicticable. Unlike this bloody forum that will drive us all to distraction. I have to say on meeting Joe our collision coach at David Lloyds I was optimistic as to what we could attain. However a team that could provide rampaging forwards running over weak opposition and giving fast distribution to aback line that could cut through any defence in the league became a dream that was never to be!

The reality is that we have a tight 5 consisting of the likes Luton, Black, Warrick who attempt to burrow under the gain line, an honest operator in Van De Merve who makes the rest look inept with Alan O'Connor who in time will decimate opposition defences but isn't Brad Thorn. A back row of a returning Chris Henry who isn't getting over the gainline with no speed or getting any where near enough ball turned over, an aging Roger Wilson, Soft safer Robbie Diack (great in the line out.... brad pitt getting over the gainline. Back ups of Pete Brown and a casualty list of Dan T etc

Ruan P who has put in the worst season since arriving in an Ulster Shirt, Paddy Jackson who can kick from the tee these days most of the time but continues to kick from restarts far to deep and continually doesn't give chasers ( who do not chase that often) a chance to contest a restart. Or doesn't stick in the 9th row to spot a quick restart on an exit strategy?

A back line who unlike some of the opposition we have faced are unaware of what running the defence at full gas actually is?
Cave is a fans fav here but he just doesn't have the gas, yes great at organising the defence but virus or not, isn't cutting it. Payne not at full back etc and Stockdale a clone of Robbie Diack who doesn't seem to know the word aggression. Don't tell me he's only 19 as there are plenty in Hydebank!

It would be nice to see a team dominate the gainline.

It would be nice to see our team get over the gainline.

It would be nice to see our team in defence send their team in reverse over our gain line.

It would be nice to see our team avoid contact and break the gainline. (Clean breaks)
Instead of trying to burrow down a feckin rabbit hole!

It would be nice to actually see our team play a game and control the tempo of the game and doesn't mean playing in slow Motion? Doakies last two years 'we want to dictate the tempo" as long as it slow enough for ou flecks to keep up!

Turn a defence and get some front foot ball?

Please let us fans create the atmosphere without a feckin band of imports who had never been to an Ulster match before you contacted the good Professo at Queen's to play during our own line out or when we kick for the posts or set a false atmosphere that was better with 5-6000 fans in 2003-06 or play a feckin midi drum beat over the Front of House Public Address for a shout out for Ulster!

Please forget about the crap media interviews of all the players with we have trained so well, we are going to put it right crap with your student Media Students importedfor free after last years recruitment drive!

Ulster rugby if you are reading this.
After 27 years of supporting this team I am considering decking off and not renewing my 2 season tickets (used to be 4 until two years back).

This might come as a big supprise but unless the team either wins year in year out or entertains us fans week in week out, we generally are not interested in Facebook, radio interviews, brass bands, promises of world domination, Dickheads from Q Radio, Feckin catch the ball with Doakies kids kick in or not!

We want a feckin trophy in the cabinet and we are not going to get it without the likes of the 1F's, Hendersons, Williams who could actually get over the gainline line. Fastball getting in behind defences and a quick game plan not allowing for defence rests etc!

Logan yo have been gifted a new stadium and a bedding in process, you can stick your corporate crap were the sun don't shine, time to perform!j

I for one am fed up and considering abandoning ship. You will have only a limited few seasons of newness and football converts!

Sort it out!

Fed up with the crap served up this week, if this was a reaction then it's time to wake up and smell the roses.

For anyone who disagrees you know where to stick it!""""" :

#FedUpDisallusionedFeckedOffHadEnoughMightNotRenewTheSeasonTicketsEtcEtcEtc

Dreadful post ...........are you feeling bullied?

[BaggyTrousers]

I enjoyed that Sparkey Clarkey - certainly wearing your heart on your sleeve and hard to see too much fault in it. I wouldn't be too hard on the players/coaches. The players just aren't up to it. A bit like Ireland really. Take away a bit of half-decent talent and the rest is mediocrity. A little bit of depth in the backs maybe but fek all up front. Even at full-strength, we're pretty average in the pack. The sames ol lads on here have been blowing on about Diack and Cave for years. Not sure if I've even seen DIack break wind never mind a tackle. Cave is a great lad and not the messiah that half the eejits on here go on about. Jared is twice the player. Ruan has been overplayed for a couple of seasons now but what other choice do we have. Don't worry, once we get Best and Henderson back, we'll win a couple of games and the same whingers will be saying how we'll top the table.

In reality you've rarely as good as your last win and rarely as bad as your last defeat. We're just a bit ordinary. A couple of big signings are coming and they should point us in the right direction. I think this year is a bedding in year for Kiss. Next season might be a bit more interesting but we'll need luck with injuries which never seems to happen really.

Stupid in the NH, equally stupid in the SH. Crap post .............so crap you couldn't even spell the name of the poster you were congratulating. Dickhead.

[BaggyTrousers]

Re going for the corner versus taking the 3 points: assuming that a try leads to 7 points, and that every penalty is successful, a team needs to score 43% of the times it goes for the corner. I suspect we are nowhere near that. Sometimes it feels like we don't even hit the jumper that many times. If there is one thing which has me watching through my hands it's our 5m line-outs. Even in nights when our set-piece seems rock solid we frequently seem to make a hash of it.

Obviously things like field position, wind etc are factors but I think we're talking about refusing 3 points on offer that you would bet on your kicker to get.

I'd say going to the corner should only be used in exceptional circumstances, like when you're more than a score down with time running out, or when then game is won and a bonus point beckons. Statistically most teams will end up with more points taking the kicks.

Although Ulster are hideously frustrating when going for the corner at times, there is more to the logic of doing it than the simple calculus of the probability of scoring 5 or 7 points versus the probability of scoring 3. Assuming a successful kick, the opposition get a big chance to relive the pressure from the halfway line. A bungled attempt for a try, unless it's really bungled, will probably keep the pressure on. At best, you'd expect the opposition to be going for pressurised clearing kicks that either go to the hands of the waiting back three, or goes into touch, usually well inside the defending team's half, allowing further establishment of field position, possession and pressure from the attacking team. It's a tactic I'm actually pleased to see Ulster employ, even when they mess it up, because over the course of the game, the effort involved in resisting continued defensive pressure in the red zone is often worth a lot more than the three points. Unfortunately, the only way to get better in those situations is to keep trying.

Directly, you're right when you say that statistically most teams will score more going for the posts; but over the course of the game, it is probably a different story, even if that is much harder to statistically quantify.

For a man so fond of stats to go against Dearie's stats is informative. Has Neil lost it or has he a good point?

Well that bit I have highlighted instantly reminded me of an incident that cost Ireland a Grand Slam when they had late penalty to extend their lead with about 3 minutes remaining at Croke Park fernenst France. ROG kicked it, we missed the KO, Clerc scored & a GS was lost.

A perfect illustration of when to go for the post & when to pin a team in their on 22 with time almost up. It really does come down to what is the right call at the right time & memory suggests that Ulster aren't great at getting it right, any more so than England were against Wales in the recent RWC.

The problem captain's have is that what sticks with the fans are the times it goes wrong, I cannot easily recall a time when it was the right call & executed correctly, whereas the Clerc try example is imprinted on my brain. It is genuinely one of those issues where it's down to good captaincy, even if he then needs others to make it the right call.

My own feeling is that most of the time, taking the points is the right call but it is absolutely dependent on circumstances of the match.

[cheese]

I see Baggy is up to his usual and talking rubbish. Good honest post by Sparky. Baggy go learn about rugby.

[Neil F]

For a man so fond of stats to go against Dearie's stats is informative. Has Neil lost it or has he a good point?

Well that bit I have highlighted instantly reminded me of an incident that cost Ireland a Grand Slam when they had late penalty to extend their lead with about 3 minutes remaining at Croke Park fernenst France. ROG kicked it, we missed the KO, Clerc scored & a GS was lost.

A perfect illustration of when to go for the post & when to pin a team in their on 22 with time almost up. It really does come down to what is the right call at the right time & memory suggests that Ulster aren't great at getting it right, any more so than England were against Wales in the recent RWC.

The problem captain's have is that what sticks with the fans are the times it goes wrong, I cannot easily recall a time when it was the right call & executed correctly, whereas the Clerc try example is imprinted on my brain. It is genuinely one of those issues where it's down to good captaincy, even if he then needs others to make it the right call.

My own feeling is that most of the time, taking the points is the right call but it is absolutely dependent on circumstances of the match.

Statistics are good for talking about what does happen, Baggy. A lot less good at talking about what doesn't, if you catch my drift? As I said, I think there's plenty of room for trade-offs in the game of rugby, particularly when it comes to a shot at the posts. At the same time, I think we'd all universally agree that all things the same, it's better to maintain ball, field position and pressure than it is to relieve it. In many cases, I think three points is a worthy sacrifice to make to keep that momentum building, even if there is no immediate payoff. You're right - there are no hard and fast rules; sometimes, what appears a good call (say, taking a shot at the posts on 78 minutes with the game finely balanced at 14-13) turns out to be the wrong one. At that moment in time, though, Ireland were moving forward and were building momentum; it seemed odd to me to sacrifice that (not least because O'Gara really didn't take as long over that bloody kick as he should have...), yet at that stage, any score for France would have won it. The balance of probabilities was complex: a 30% chance of reclaiming the restart, say, and a tiny probability of going the next 35 metres to the try line versus a 5% of snaffling Ireland's ball from a penalty lineout and going the 50m to get within kicking range...

Thinking along those lines, it's easy to see that there isn't a hard or fast rule - that circumstances dictate a hell of a lot about what the right decision is. Conversely, it's also broadly why I'm happy to see Ulster do it more often, even if it doesn't always payoff. The hope, of course, remains that they get better at it... I can understand why someone would prefer taking the points in most scenarios but sometimes, I think building pressure (and turning pressure into points) is Ulster's second biggest failing this season, after falling off tackles. Any opportunity to build pressure has, I think, a bigger payoff over the course of 80 minutes than going back to the halfway line after three points and watching Ulster flail away between the 10 metre lines...