La Rochelle Vs Ulster Sun 22/10/17 15.15 Sky Sports Action

[BR]

Good Ulsterman that I am, I've been at 5 of the 3 games they've lost in France

Would ya stop going then?

Yer a scud ... bad luck ... a jinx - STAY AWAY!

How many of the wins has he been at though? He's probably been at all 3 of the 7 wins.

[Neil F]

Generally, I'm quite surprised by the quiet acceptance of an absolute drubbing that has come through this thread. There is something to be said about applauding a team who stand up well in the face of a significant better opponent; when the losing team plays well; and when the scoreboard is a fair reflection of the outcome. With Ulster's performance yesterday, I struggle with the first two.

Ulster did well in the first-half, having made life difficult for themselves by conceding an avoidable early try. This is a problem Ulster have had a lot in this competition in the last few years. I can't think of any other team who so regularly gifts up an early score to quality opposition as Ulster do. The team defended well and looked purposeful when they got the ball.

At the start of the second half, all of the pressure came on and, to start with, Ulster absorbed it well. The defence was strong. Key turnovers, on which momentum could swing, were won. And then, under the cosh, Ulster turn the ball over and Lealiifano, inexplicably, chose to keep the ball live. One could say this was a poor decision made in the heat of the moment but I struggle to see that. Ulster's exist strategy in this competition has been incredibly poor in recent years. Keep the ball live after turnovers seems to be a thing they've been told to do. In reality, it just invites the unrelenting pressure that became too much yesterday.

Remarkably, after that poor exit, Ulster somehow held on and didn't concede. Indeed, they managed to turn the ball over again and Cooney, I suppose at least trying to hit touch, messed it up. The ball stayed live. And eventually, La Rochelle scored. Ulster had some sort of opportunity to attempt to affect a momentum shift at least twice in this period. As it was, they totally messed it up; instead of affecting a momentum shift, Ulster invited more energy-sapping pressure. After that score, Ulster fell apart. They looked bereft of leadership and shipped a bunch more tries.

I'm happy to accept that Ulster were duffed by a much better team but I cannot accept that this was a passable performance by Ulster. It wasn't. Not by a long shot.

[BR]

Generally, I'm quite surprised by the quiet acceptance of an absolute drubbing that has come through this thread. There is something to be said about applauding a team who stand up well in the face of a significant better opponent; when the losing team plays well; and when the scoreboard is a fair reflection of the outcome. With Ulster's performance yesterday, I struggle with the first two.

Ulster did well in the first-half, having made life difficult for themselves by conceding an avoidable early try. This is a problem Ulster have had a lot in this competition in the last few years. I can't think of any other team who so regularly gifts up an early score to quality opposition as Ulster do. The team defended well and looked purposeful when they got the ball.

At the start of the second half, all of the pressure came on and, to start with, Ulster absorbed it well. The defence was strong. Key turnovers, on which momentum could swing, were won. And then, under the cosh, Ulster turn the ball over and Lealiifano, inexplicably, chose to keep the ball live. One could say this was a poor decision made in the heat of the moment but I struggle to see that. Ulster's exist strategy in this competition has been incredibly poor in recent years. Keep the ball live after turnovers seems to be a thing they've been told to do. In reality, it just invites the unrelenting pressure that became too much yesterday.

Remarkably, after that poor exit, Ulster somehow held on and didn't concede. Indeed, they managed to turn the ball over again and Cooney, I suppose at least trying to hit touch, messed it up. The ball stayed live. And eventually, La Rochelle scored. Ulster had some sort of opportunity to attempt to affect a momentum shift at least twice in this period. As it was, they totally messed it up; instead of affecting a momentum shift, Ulster invited more energy-sapping pressure. After that score, Ulster fell apart. They looked bereft of leadership and shipped a bunch more tries.

I'm happy to accept that Ulster were duffed by a much better team but I cannot accept that this was a passable performance by Ulster. It wasn't. Not by a long shot.

So we need a player who can kick for touch, make decisions and be a leader, is that what you're saying?

Can't argue with that.

[222toHounslow]

Don't think there is anything wrong with accepting Ulster were beaten by a top quality side.

But if it helps, Ulster were dung?

[BaggyTrousers]

Neil, you seem to have made more or less the same decisions I did in respect of how the play unfolded, you just have yer panties in a bunch about it whereas I simply saw what I expected - no that's not quite true - what I saw was not nearly as bad as I had expected for I wouldn't have been surprised if we'd shipped 60 like at Toulon a few seasons back.

LOOK I could talk all day about how Christian Leali'ifano is a wonderful player but he's not a great 10 by any measure, you cannot do what we did with both him and Cooney unable to clear the ball after really excellent work by an outgunned but game as a badger pack, in which we had our 3rd & 4th ranked (I hope) LHs and I thought Black was manful, did a real Nigel Brady job, everything he had he gave.

It's not Black's fault he is not good enough, he's given pretty solid service, but although not ancient for a prop, he's closing on 32 and will not get better, like Bowe & Trimble the latter having another tough day, Bowe did the better but again, Old Father Time is exacting a heavy payment.

If you'd come at this expecting the rounds of the kitchen as I did, there were actually a lot of very decent performances, albeit the scoreboard doesn't lie. Just remember that the week before the SDC they put 50 on Clermont. I like realism, it makes life just that little bit easier when your team have been demonstrably proven to be a long way short of the level required to compete with the best teams in the SDC.

I suspect inexperience may undo them eventually but I think they will be a very hard team to put away if as I expect they blow this group apart and get top or close to top seeding.

We were ultimately demolished Neil but on the turf of a very very good team. It's not worth us beating ourselves up about, just needs to be placed in context, we are an average team. Had we started with Rory, Diddies, Marcell, Girrid, Paddy, Stockcube, Louis, Big Red, I still don't think we'd have won but we would have been better equipped to challenge them.

Unfortunately, 3 of those may never play for Ulster again for varying reasons.

[Neil F]

So we need a player who can kick for touch, make decisions and be a leader, is that what you're saying?

Can't argue with that.

Maybe. But I find it difficult to believe that poor exits are, specifically, a player problem, given that the problem has persisted over a number of seasons with a few different 9s and 10s (admittedly, of varying quality).

[Neil F]

Neil, you seem to have made more or less the same decisions I did in respect of how the play unfolded, you just have yer panties in a bunch about it whereas I simply saw what I expected - no that's not quite true - what I saw was not nearly as bad as I had expected for I wouldn't have been surprised if we'd shipped 60 like at Toulon a few seasons back.

In part, I agree with you. I had no expectation, before that game, or at half-time, that Ulster would get anything at all out of it. I am not frustrated by the result; but rather, by what I've seen to be repeated failures from Ulster on some very basic aspects of the game and I find it surprising that others aren't bothered by them, I suspect because you are quite right in saying that many had expected it to be worse. It could have been. Easily.

My concern isn't, really, about results, though. Rather, it is some hope of seeing improvement in the things that have let Ulster down in recent seasons. Certainly, that was one of the better games I've seen from an Ulster pack in recent times, and that is somehow heartening to see. At the same time, so many of the other failings that Ulster have shown under Kiss and Doak before are still present. Very specifically, Ulster have a big problem of inviting pressure onto themselves. Good teams will put you under enough pressure without your inviting them to do so... Part of this is the poor exist strategy I've spoken about already. Some of it can be put down to simple mistakes. Handling errors that break-up the play. Giving away stupid penalties out of kicking range that hand over 40m of territory. It is frustrating to watch Ulster make those same mistakes time and time again. It probably doesn't matter against much better opposition, like La Rochelle, but it sure as hell matters in the league.

I care about watching Ulster. I have little concern about the Champions Cup, though. The reformation from a couple of years ago stripped the magic out of it. I doubt Ulster will do much in that tournament for the foreseeable future. Yet when one can see teams like the Scarlets and Glasgow winning the ProWhatever, it grates to see Ulster continually fail, and especially to see them fail against mediocre opposition (regardless of how mediocre Ulster's team may be). It grates to see Ulster perform poorly. And all of the reasons why they do perform poorly, in my opinion, we still on display in La Rochelle, even if the performance itself was better; even if it was better than expected.

[GLENN CORNICK]

I care about watching Ulster. I have little concern about the Champions Cup, though. The reformation from a couple of years ago stripped the magic out of it.


Indeed Neil; the English and the French were riled by Irish successes.

I suspect the moneyfication of rugby will end what most know and enjoy.

The French Top 14 already looks like the English premiership football set up.

[Thelaw]

Im surprised at the level of outrage aimed at Ulster by some on here. A quick search showed that in 2015/16 The La Rochelle budget was 16.4 Million. Ulsters was 9.3. At the end of the day we - and the other Provinces cannot continue to compete with the English and French. They have the money to buy whoever they want - to develop players etc. We simply dont.

[BaggyTrousers]

Yip, agree with the gist of that.

People seemingly do not agree with me, but our number 10 is a fine centre who is not really even an adequate 10 against top opposition. For me he very very clearly does not have a kicking game remotely close to a top class 10, I'm not yet certain but probably not the speed of decision making required for a top class 10 who has that fraction of a second less than a quality centre outside of a quality 10.

If your 10 is unable to capitalise on great work by your forwards in turning ball over on your line, just imagine yourself as one of the forwards, you have battled to stop the opposition, stripped them of the ball, you need to be seeing the ball go up the pitch and into touch, even 22 meagre metres, walk up, recover your breath and fight again to win the ball.

Great 10s reward the work of their forwards, that's why forwards loved ROG. Leali'ifano and Cooney both let the pack down in that respect and you simply cannot play without someone competent to do that. I'd even back Admirable Nelson to make a better fist of that aspect, though he has nothing like the other abilities of CL save for a stack of pace.

[BR]

So we need a player who can kick for touch, make decisions and be a leader, is that what you're saying?

Can't argue with that.

Maybe. But I find it difficult to believe that poor exits are, specifically, a player problem, given that the problem has persisted over a number of seasons with a few different 9s and 10s (admittedly, of varying quality).

Agreed. The exits may have actually improved in recent times, but whether it was the personnel or the pressure on Sunday, they seemed to return to the style of a season or two ago.

[Russ]

Generally, I'm quite surprised by the quiet acceptance of an absolute drubbing that has come through this thread. There is something to be said about applauding a team who stand up well in the face of a significant better opponent; when the losing team plays well; and when the scoreboard is a fair reflection of the outcome. With Ulster's performance yesterday, I struggle with the first two.

Ulster did well in the first-half, having made life difficult for themselves by conceding an avoidable early try. This is a problem Ulster have had a lot in this competition in the last few years. I can't think of any other team who so regularly gifts up an early score to quality opposition as Ulster do. The team defended well and looked purposeful when they got the ball.

At the start of the second half, all of the pressure came on and, to start with, Ulster absorbed it well. The defence was strong. Key turnovers, on which momentum could swing, were won. And then, under the cosh, Ulster turn the ball over and Lealiifano, inexplicably, chose to keep the ball live. One could say this was a poor decision made in the heat of the moment but I struggle to see that. Ulster's exist strategy in this competition has been incredibly poor in recent years. Keep the ball live after turnovers seems to be a thing they've been told to do. In reality, it just invites the unrelenting pressure that became too much yesterday.

Remarkably, after that poor exit, Ulster somehow held on and didn't concede. Indeed, they managed to turn the ball over again and Cooney, I suppose at least trying to hit touch, messed it up. The ball stayed live. And eventually, La Rochelle scored. Ulster had some sort of opportunity to attempt to affect a momentum shift at least twice in this period. As it was, they totally messed it up; instead of affecting a momentum shift, Ulster invited more energy-sapping pressure. After that score, Ulster fell apart. They looked bereft of leadership and shipped a bunch more tries.

I'm happy to accept that Ulster were duffed by a much better team but I cannot accept that this was a passable performance by Ulster. It wasn't. Not by a long shot.

So we need a player who can kick for touch, make decisions and be a leader, is that what you're saying?

Can't argue with that.

We arent allowed to talk about that!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Russ]

Im surprised at the level of outrage aimed at Ulster by some on here. A quick search showed that in 2015/16 The La Rochelle budget was 16.4 Million. Ulsters was 9.3. At the end of the day we - and the other Provinces cannot continue to compete with the English and French. They have the money to buy whoever they want - to develop players etc. We simply dont.

Funnily enough the Guardian has rounded on the PRL for fecking up this competition today

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[Cockatrice]

I wonder how long before we run the risk of breaking our emergency cover 10. He has been carrying an injury for a few weeks and this weekend still seen us go with no back-up except that Cooney would presumably cover both positions.

Our back-up-to our emergency cover 10 was off with the A's and our back-up to our back-up was to be on the bench elsewhere only to be pulled last minute dot.com and taken to France in case we had to start the game with no 10... in the end he came off and I seen enough of Cooney to think he should maybe stick at 9..

lets hope we don't break Christian.. because all those other break glass options aren't being allowed anywhere near a pitch.

[jackthelad]

I've been at 2 in France and they lost both, Stade Francaise and Toulouse, there was certainly another loss to SF time of the snow, they also lost in Clermont and I can't be arsed thinking of others.

They also drew 35 -35 with Toulouse. dHumph missed a relatively easy conversion that should have won the game.